Judges wandering on field

[Cappybara]

1 hour ago, karuna said:

Ridiculous.  Even Ream admits there is STILL risk; he just call it's "minimal".  As for actual collisions,  perhaps the number would be FAR different if like the FAA you started counting "near misses".   

Please explain why a judge should be permitted to put a performer as risk?  I've asked this question multiple times but no one ever seems to have a good answer.  Here's a hint:  BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ONE!  

Yes the hype tapes will be not be as MEGA-SUPER-HYPED.  But the judge can still rank and rate accurately.  

So sorry the days of "I hit a judge"  contests are gone. 

Change is hard.  

Personally I would have opted for "outside drill" but as we can see percussion judges  already have problems understanding two yards so that would probably not have worked.  

Considering all your snide comments about the intelligence of drummers, it is clear you aren't even close to objective and haven't contributed a single meaningful thing to this discussion 

[Weaklefthand4ever]

8 minutes ago, karuna said:

Hmm I said Ream called it minimal. And didn’t mention you at all in reference to hitting judges (although you did bring it up). Maybe take some time to read carefully.  I apologize in advance for asking for that. Attacking the poster is always a good strategy when the facts have abandoned you

Check your buttons...your bias is showing. You are however correct in that judges should not put members, or themselves at risk. So, if they can do it in a manner that keeps all involved safe, then I see no issues.

I never gunned for judges in my DCI or DCA days (nor did any of us in lines I marched in) but I had a near miss. So let's not act like it was some random contest and we're like Bevis and Butthead on the field. 

I've certainly marched enough to know that judging is something I personally would not want to attempt. But there are plenty of percussion judges who are pretty #### good at what they do. 

So again, if it's safe, then good. If it's not, then make it safe in whatever way you have to. Judges on the field or not, if you haven't judged a DCI or DCA drumline, you simply don't have all the answers no matter how good you think your argument is. 

[Cappybara]

47 minutes ago, karuna said:

Anyone who’s ever watched a percussion judge immediately knows the risk is not minimal. (In fact that’s what makes so many watch them make there daring escapes.  Same reason many watch motor sports).  

Judges can rank and rate accurately from the front sideline. Spreads and ranks matter and there’s nothing interfering with that assessment.  In fact front ensembles will now get much better reads because the judge won’t spend so much time “traveling”. 

Finally nice try.  Never said anything about the competency of DCI judges. But it is very revealing to see “top names” already wandering far past 2 yards. 

I've watched quite a few percussion judges, not one of them has hit a corps member. Any interaction I've seen between a drum judge and the corps has been beneficial to the corps (picking up sticks, Crown's snare, etc). So yes, I'd say there's very minimal risk. 

How do you know judges can rank and rate percussion lines at this level properly sitting at the front sideline? Maybe right now when lines are relatively dirty sure it may be possible. How about when lines become extremely clean and the very miniscule differences between lines cannot be determined without an up close look? Percussion is unique from the hornline in that it is partially visual and partially auditory. You take away the visual, you take away a part of the adjudication process. 

[Cappybara]

On 7/1/2019 at 1:03 AM, karuna said:

Sure would. Virtually everyone who has marched knows what an 8 to 5 feels like.  Not hard to keep yourself in the 2 yard zone. Besides halfway to the numbers is WAY more than 2yds. This is exactly why this rule change was passed.  “Oh we’re very professional and extremely aware of our surroundings  but if you don’t mark the 2yard boundary we have no idea where we are”.   Dear sweet Jesus save us from all drummers.   

 

2 hours ago, karuna said:

Hardly.  But if the the great and powerful Ream admits that it's "minimal risk" IF the hockey puck judge is properly trained (which means they're going memorize the drill to every show they judge, anticipate every drill move, and don't let themselves lose track of where they are in the show, which anyone who's ever taught drill will admit is impossible to do )  they've pretty much conceded.  

It's pretty easy to agree that no judge should be putting ANY performer at risk.  It's a pretty simple idea ; even a drummer can understand it  

 

38 minutes ago, karuna said:

Hmm I said Ream called it minimal. And didn’t mention you at all in reference to hitting judges (although you did bring it up). Maybe take some time to read carefully.  I apologize in advance for asking for that. Attacking the poster is always a good strategy when the facts have abandoned you. 

 

Oh the irony

[Cappybara]

37 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

Who?  In what context?  You feel that this is THE true reason for the change?

Let me ask you something. 

Many percussion instructors/caption heads within DCI opposed this change.

You and Karuna have stated numerous times how much risk having the judges move within the drill puts the students.

Do you genuinely believe these instructors and caption heads would willingly vote to put their own students at risk? 

 

The activity has drifted to become a visual product. Corps can come in 1st place in every music caption and still not win the trophy in August. Corps are spending less time playing music and more time doing ridiculous visuals and pushing around props. Where's the outrage for all the dangerous, tight drill moves, acrobatics, and props being implemented in shows? Those things pose far greater risk than drum judges. Yet corps directors voted to remove the judges so they can continue to beef up their visual products with even more dangerous drill moves, acrobatics, and props without having drum judges come in between. The notion that this rule was implemented purely and primarily for the safety of the members is well... lol. 

[cfirwin3]

19 minutes ago, Cappybara said:

Let me ask you something. 

Many percussion instructors/caption heads within DCI opposed this change.

You and Karuna have stated numerous times how much risk having the judges move within the drill puts the students.

Do you genuinely believe these instructors and caption heads would willingly vote to put their own students at risk? 

 

The activity has drifted to become a visual product. Corps can come in 1st place in every music caption and still not win the trophy in August. Corps are spending less time playing music and more time doing ridiculous visuals and pushing around props. Where's the outrage for all the dangerous, tight drill moves, acrobatics, and props being implemented in shows? Those things pose far greater risk than drum judges. Yet corps directors voted to remove the judges so they can continue to beef up their visual products with even more dangerous drill moves, acrobatics, and props without having drum judges come in between. The notion that this rule was implemented purely and primarily for the safety of the members is well... lol. 

It's my understanding that the final vote on this was fairly unanimous.  I know that there are forum statements here about the 'silence being deafening' and various comments 'off the record', etc... but that isn't how this works.  When you oppose something, you speak openly... when you reach a compromise, you get on board and that's what has apparently happened.

Now a few things on my part in this long discussion that may not be clear at any one point.

- I have concerns over the safety of some of the staging and performance requirements that are being fielded.  I think serious injury is inevitable unless they regulate a few aspects of members on staging (height, in particular).

- The absence of concern over staging and props (which I don't exhibit) isn't an effective argument for the ignorance of any other safety issue.

- I generally have no issues with the complexities of drill and the expansion of it.  Drill is learned by the members such that drill itself is relatively safe if everyone is performing the show and being mindful of their situation.  It's relatively safe because the members have a rehearsed path and presence (something the field judges don't and can't have).

- I can't help but notice that most of your complaints are pertaining to a personal aesthetic and it's undesired (for you) relationship to the consequences of adjudication.  On that point, nobody can change your mind... but this decision is not made to conform to your (or my) aesthetic preferences.

- You seem to suggest that removing the judges from the field so that it can be more visual isn't a safety concern... but actually, you just spelled out the safety concern perfectly.  You just disagree with the motivation of the premise for the change (that's not how you may prefer your shows).

This is Bb horns all over again.

Edited July 4, 2019 by cfirwin3

[Cappybara]

8 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

It's my understanding that the final vote on this was fairly unanimous.  I know that there are forum statements here about the 'silence being deafening' and various comments 'off the record', etc... but that isn't how this works.  When you oppose something, you speak openly... when you reach a compromise, you get on board and that's what has apparently happened.

Now a few things on my part in this long discussion that may not be clear at any one point.

- I have concerns over the safety of some of the staging and performance requirements that are being fielded.  I think serious injury is inevitable unless they regulate a few aspects of members on staging (height, in particular).

- The absence of concern over staging and props (which I don't exhibit) isn't an effective argument for the ignorance of any other safety issue.

- I generally have no issues with the complexities of drill and the expansion of it.  Drill is learned by the members such that drill itself is relatively safe if everyone is performing the show and being mindful of their situation.  It's relatively safe because the members have a rehearsed path and presence (something the field judges don't and can't have).

- I can't help but notice that most of your complaints are pertaining to a personal aesthetic and it's undesired (for you) relationship to the consequences of adjudication.  On that point, nobody can change your mind... but this decision is not made to conform to your (or my) aesthetic preferences.

- You seem to suggest that removing the judges from the field so that it can be more visual isn't a safety concern... but actually, you just spelled out the safety concern perfectly.  You just disagree with the motivation of the premise for the change (that's not how you may prefer your shows).

This is Bb horns all over again.

1. not sure what you're referring to in terms of personal aesthetic

2. to be clear, my position is that while having judges on the field and the props/drill are risks of DCI, the latter poses a significant risk to players (we see players tripping on tarps or slipping on their props nearly every competition) while the former poses a minimal one where the benefits (proper adjudication, encouragement for players to attempt more difficult material, cleanup of fallen headgear/stick/etc) outweigh the risk. 

3. Are you really comparing the decision that basically saved drum corps to a rule change about percussion judges moving off the field so visual designers can feed their egos?

[cfirwin3]

20 minutes ago, Cappybara said:

1. not sure what you're referring to in terms of personal aesthetic

2. to be clear, my position is that while having judges on the field and the props/drill are risks of DCI, the latter poses a significant risk to players (we see players tripping on tarps or slipping on their props nearly every competition) while the former poses a minimal one where the benefits (proper adjudication, encouragement for players to attempt more difficult material, cleanup of fallen headgear/stick/etc) outweigh the risk. 

3. Are you really comparing the decision that basically saved drum corps to a rule change about percussion judges moving off the field so visual designers can feed their egos?

Your description of the conditions that have brought about the change SEEMS to indicate a contempt of those conditions, which is an aesthetic issue.

Again, there is nothing, not even the rule itself, that prevents a judge from doing the right thing for performers... including stepping into some drill for the specific purpose of grabbing a stick, shoe, drum or rubber chicken to get it out of the way.  The system accounts for extenuating circumstances... The very act of intervention under the old policy was never an explicit part of the job.  The notion that judges won't be just as ethical or that organizations would pitch a fit when they are is fantasy.

My concern is with the slightest nudge that puts some poor horn player in the orthodontist chair for reconstructive surgery (seen it happen).  The risk of this is increasing, and the answer is not to return to linear, more spaced out and predictable drill.

I am comparing the hysterical fan response to the transposition key of brass instruments to the same response in this situation.

Again, the claim of cause "percussion judges moving off the field so visual designers can feed their egos" is an accusation without merit.  It assigns a conspiracy to a lot of people... claiming that the stated cause is a lie and that an unstated cause is the definitive truth.

[skevinp]

Anyone who is truly outraged at this decision should reserve their ire for the people who made it happen, rather than taking it out on members of a discussion board who merely have a diffferent opinion.  They aren't the ones who did it.

[Cappybara]

1 hour ago, cfirwin3 said:

Your description of the conditions that have brought about the change SEEMS to indicate a contempt of those conditions, which is an aesthetic issue.

Again, there is nothing, not even the rule itself, that prevents a judge from doing the right thing for performers... including stepping into some drill for the specific purpose of grabbing a stick, shoe, drum or rubber chicken to get it out of the way.  The system accounts for extenuating circumstances... The very act of intervention under the old policy was never an explicit part of the job.  The notion that judges won't be just as ethical or that organizations would pitch a fit when they are is fantasy.

My concern is with the slightest nudge that puts some poor horn player in the orthodontist chair for reconstructive surgery (seen it happen).  The risk of this is increasing, and the answer is not to return to linear, more spaced out and predictable drill.

I am comparing the hysterical fan response to the transposition key of brass instruments to the same response in this situation.

Again, the claim of cause "percussion judges moving off the field so visual designers can feed their egos" is an accusation without merit.  It assigns a conspiracy to a lot of people... claiming that the stated cause is a lie and that an unstated cause is the definitive truth.

Im still not sure what you're getting at with regards to the vague use of the word "aesthetics" but I guess it doesn't really matter 

 

Again, that's a pretty ridiculous comparison as the hysteria behind the change to Bb instruments was significantly more than this, enough with the exaggeration. 

It is without formal evidence, yes, but it is my position nonetheless. 

I'm just going to say that I truly believe that over the years this rule change will result in the following:

1. Inaccurate and inconsistent judging of percussion lines in the late season when everyone is clean and very little differentiates one line to another 

2. The difficulty and intricacies of drum books will decrease (with probably) an increase in difficulty in the front ensemble since the judge will be spending their whole time on the front sideline) as there is less incentive to perform intricate work since the judges won't be able to see it anyways which will be a disservice to the education of those in the battery

Edited July 4, 2019 by Cappybara