Judges wandering on field

[Jeff Ream]

On 7/3/2019 at 11:02 PM, cfirwin3 said:

It's my understanding that the final vote on this was fairly unanimous.  I know that there are forum statements here about the 'silence being deafening' and various comments 'off the record', etc... but that isn't how this works.  When you oppose something, you speak openly... when you reach a compromise, you get on board and that's what has apparently happened.

Now a few things on my part in this long discussion that may not be clear at any one point.

- I have concerns over the safety of some of the staging and performance requirements that are being fielded.  I think serious injury is inevitable unless they regulate a few aspects of members on staging (height, in particular).

- The absence of concern over staging and props (which I don't exhibit) isn't an effective argument for the ignorance of any other safety issue.

- I generally have no issues with the complexities of drill and the expansion of it.  Drill is learned by the members such that drill itself is relatively safe if everyone is performing the show and being mindful of their situation.  It's relatively safe because the members have a rehearsed path and presence (something the field judges don't and can't have).

- I can't help but notice that most of your complaints are pertaining to a personal aesthetic and it's undesired (for you) relationship to the consequences of adjudication.  On that point, nobody can change your mind... but this decision is not made to conform to your (or my) aesthetic preferences.

- You seem to suggest that removing the judges from the field so that it can be more visual isn't a safety concern... but actually, you just spelled out the safety concern perfectly.  You just disagree with the motivation of the premise for the change (that's not how you may prefer your shows).

This is Bb horns all over again.

how about they walked in knowing the deck was stacked against them and threw out a compromise. the safe zone was something not initially planned to happen. 

 

And no it isn't Bb horns or anywhere close to it. that was an equipment change that went against long standing traditions as well as sound created. Good straw man though

[Jeff Ream]

On 7/3/2019 at 11:55 PM, skevinp said:

Anyone who is truly outraged at this decision should reserve their ire for the people who made it happen, rather than taking it out on members of a discussion board who merely have a diffferent opinion.  They aren't the ones who did it.

that you know of. when you post under a screen name and not your real name, you have no idea who is posting ( without research anyway)

[Jeff Ream]

22 hours ago, karuna said:

Cappy  you don’t need to defend Jeff. He’s heard far worse right to his face. He’s knows the drummer pokes are just pokes and not serious.  

I considered the poster and replied if it made me laugh. But when Cappy and I are on the same page, well, that says something about you

[Jeff Ream]

9 hours ago, Precious Roy said:

How about this compromise:

Drummers want their work to be judged fairly, fully, and up close. Visual designers don't want the drum judge mucking up the drill. Everybody wants everybody involved to be safe. So, let's have the percussion section be judged in a standstill before the field performance, so that the up close percussion judges can assign their scores without getting in the way of drill. Perhaps even allow (the same or different) percussion judges to adjust their score based on the ensuing field performance (because, GE and stuff).

How about this loophole to the current rules (and stated/implied rules associated with them):

A stellar percussion battery section has a particularly juicy feature coming up, and wants to make sure the percussion judge sees it fully and properly. But it would be most effectively performed in a form that is backfield a bit. Whoops, one of the snares "accidentally" looses a stick, right in front of the judge in the 2-yard zone, right before quickly marching backfield to prepare for the feature. In the interest of safety, the judge picks up the loose stick, and starts towards the snare to return it. He arrives just in time to see a killer percussion feature performed flawlessly -- up close. And scores it accordingly. The snare may or may not eventually accept her stick back, and the judge may or may not follow the snares around to attempt to return it.

 

if a drumline isnt spotless standing still in August, how well do you think they will do on the move? After all, the days of park and bark the whole show are long gone

[Jeff Ream]

6 hours ago, 1956OPR said:

Does anyone have an insight into if and/or what corps MMs were advised to do in the past if a judge got in their way on the field?

And does the current rule result in all sub-captions being judged from the sidelines/stands?

It seems like the activity has become a slave to design.

Why not allow e.g., percussion judges on the field to do their job up close and personal and adjust the visual caption to penalize designers who create design structures which 1)  create unsafe field conditions for our MMs and 2) effectively restrict field judges from applying their expertise.

when i first marched in 89, we were told to warn judges if we were coming. Judges thanked us on the field for it too

[Weaklefthand4ever]

7 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

many times performers will let a judge know to look out also. the days of "aiming for judges" died with elevator drill

I would think almost always. It would be harder to do with a horn up to your mouth but as drummers, we were always pretty verbal during the show anyways (at least between duts.)

 

[cfirwin3]

9 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

how about they walked in knowing the deck was stacked against them and threw out a compromise. the safe zone was something not initially planned to happen. 

 

And no it isn't Bb horns or anywhere close to it. that was an equipment change that went against long standing traditions as well as sound created. Good straw man though

It's no straw man.  This is offensive to people for the same reasons.  Tradition.  There is no evidence to suggest that adjudication has suffered or that corps are not receiving adequate coverage to provide accurate score comparison.

None.  Only the offense of tradition.

[Cappybara]

1 hour ago, cfirwin3 said:

It's no straw man.  This is offensive to people for the same reasons.  Tradition.  There is no evidence to suggest that adjudication has suffered or that corps are not receiving adequate coverage to provide accurate score comparison.

None.  Only the offense of tradition.

Who cares about tradition. Tradition, in my opinion, is just an emotionally rooted word substitute for "history" and the main utility of history is to gain perspective and learn from prior mistakes. 

I understand tradition is a buzz word that people like to use for their arguments but it's a dumb thing to use. What should be considered is "why are we doing this thing in the first place?" Rather than "what can we do to protect the things we have always done?" Atleast, that is what a progressive society should ask, and for reasons stated before, this move to keep the drum judges off the field is very much regressive than progressive. It is change for the sake of change, to make people FEEL that they are doing something good. An empty gesture. 

The crux of this discussion is that we fundamentally disagree on the reasoning, motives, and effects of this rule change and that is fine. We can agree to disagree. But please do not speak for me or anyone else who argues against you. You are misconstruing the reasoning for why people oppose this change. 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Cappybara

[Jeff Ream]

4 hours ago, Weaklefthand4ever said:

I would think almost always. It would be harder to do with a horn up to your mouth but as drummers, we were always pretty verbal during the show anyways (at least between duts.)

 

i've seen and heard brass players do it too.

 

an honestly...if too many big shows weren't in a stadium with a roof...I don't think it would be that big of a deal. But sitting up by the upstairs judges in LOS, when the full corps is playing, you hear rimshots, brass and amplified sounds. That's it. And then amplified sounds fight with brass. bass drums? Unless the only thing playing, forget it. I am told it's worse in Atlanta and San Antonio.

[Jeff Ream]

2 hours ago, cfirwin3 said:

It's no straw man.  This is offensive to people for the same reasons.  Tradition.  There is no evidence to suggest that adjudication has suffered or that corps are not receiving adequate coverage to provide accurate score comparison.

None.  Only the offense of tradition.

this isn't about tradition. It's about being able to be adjudicated in a manner that is fair.