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cybersnyder

What would today's shows score if teleported back to 1989?

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19 hours ago, HockeyDad said:

Question:  was what happen on the field in 2009 amazing?  1999?  1989?  1979?  My answer is yes. You cannot judge shows from yesterday through the lens of today. You just can’t. 

Of course you can.

Compare NFL players from 30 years ago to today. Across the board the size, speed and athleticism doesn’t even compare. The worst NFL team today would destroy most all of those teams. It would be men versus boys.

It doesn’t mean those players and that competition wasn’t outstanding, but the level of ability is nowhere near what it is today. That’s also true in drum corps. 

The show that hooked me on drum corps was SCV Phantom of the Opera. I saw it on PBS and I was yelling at the TV I was so amazed. But if you put Babylon on the same field as that show the crowd would gasp in shock at how overpowering and technically advanced it is.

Edited by MikeRapp

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17 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said:

It sure is.

HOWEVER, if DCI is still around in 30 years, some people will be describing the shows you now call "amazing" as obviously inferior.

They almost certainly will be obviously inferior.

Edited by MikeRapp

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1 hour ago, cfirwin3 said:

So you DON'T disagree with me.  I'm glad you posted the video.  This is what championship drumcorps looked like in that era.  This is a big impact moment and they wouldn't have been playing that ensemble rendition like that if they had been running all over creation.

They placed 4th that year  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Meanwhile, here's the Cavaliers playing a big impact moment and running around all over creation. 1st place: 

 

Edited by fanman
adding video

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2 hours ago, jwillis35 said:

I think another interesting way to look at the present vs past debate is through the lens of the fans.  From a scoring perspective I think we all know the depth of musicianship and visual design would lend itself to today's corps. It's hard to deny the quality of brass and percussion playing we hear today. Guards are amazingly skilled as well. 

The rules were so different back in the day. Before DCI began in 1972 drum corps was largely very military with procedure and design. Off the line really mean off the starting line (stage left from the fans perspective). Even through the first 2 decades of DCI, corps were playing 2-valve bugles in G, no electronics, amps, narration, or singing were allowed. You could only have 128 on the field at most. 

Yesteryear's fans (at that time) would have booed loudly and complained viciously to DCI or any corps director who allowed their corps to use amps, synths, singing, narration, etc. Especially fans from the 60s and 70s. But even in the 80s this stuff would have felt blasphemous to many.  And while props are not new these days (think SCV in the 80s), the nature of today's massive props back in 1980 or 1990 would have received major complaints and groans.  All in all, if you took today's show and put them in 1980 or so, they would not be received well no matter how they scored. If you took 80s shows and put them in a competition today, they would seem dated but would otherwise be well received by the crowds...and dare I say in some cases the crowd might actually like hearing a less chopped-up music book, even if the visual is more traditional. 

There are exceptions to the rule, and I do think shows like 93 Cadets or Star would feel athletic and demanding even by today's standards...and enjoyable. Would they win? No. But they wouldn't be last either. Those brass and percussion lines were wicked good. The drills were fast and aggressive. Plenty of other comparisons like this when it comes to the exceptions.

Nonetheless, from a fans perspective, especially in the 70s and 80s, today's shows would not be well received...even if they were winning.

I would love to see Machine and Frameworks on the same field as this era’s corps. I think crowds would love them.

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26 minutes ago, MikeRapp said:

Of course you can.

Compare NFL players from 30 years ago to today. Across the board the size, speed and athleticism doesn’t even compare. The worst NFL team today would destroy most all of those teams. It would be men versus boys.

It doesn’t mean those players and that competition wasn’t outstanding, but the level of ability is nowhere near what it is today. That’s also true in drum corps. 

The show that hooked me on drum corps was SCV Phantom of the Opera. I saw it on PBS and I was yelling at the TV I was so amazed. But if you put Babylon on the same field as that show the crowd would gasp in shock at how overpowering and technically advanced it is.

 No. The rule book in DCI has changed so dramatically it isn’t the same activity anymore. You can’t compare. It’s all about preference. Personally, the acoustic brass drew me in. Based on that I have little interest in today’s tin canny brass played through microphones that you largely can’t hear over the thunderous goo. Overpowering and technically advanced?  Not in my opinion. 

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42 minutes ago, MikeRapp said:

They almost certainly will be obviously inferior.

Well, if current trends continue, in 30 years, corps won't ever move while playing.

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1 hour ago, N.E. Brigand said:

I'm not sure I even disagree with any of the opinion expressed here, but that's what it is: an opinion.

The timing I provided is, by contrast, fact. The amount of time some portion of the brass moves WHILE playing is much greater in Bloo '89 than in Bloo '19. There's nothing subjective about that statement. It can be measured. At most, it could be shown that I was factually wrong. But the way to demonstrate that is for someone else, or multiple people, to time the show themslves. And in the end some quantifiable determination would remain.

That said, I have not once claimed that these facts means that Bloo '89 was better than Bloo '19. You can't find me saying that. I have provided some facts that others can choose or not choose to use in reaching their own opinions.

The problem is that some people seem to think that facts should matter more than opinion.

(As for your example about BD '92, here's an interesting fact about Bloo '89: for most of their closer ("Sing Sing Sing") they don't march whlie playing. That six minutes I described mostly happens during their first two songs ("Johnny One Note" and "My Funny Valentine"). Again: a fact not an opinion.)

I'm pretty sure that comparative drill and music difficulty is an observable and experiential fact.  Tempo, step size, rhythmic velocity, tonal key center, valve combinations, etc.  These things determine difficulty and appropriate drill/music combinations.  Timings may be fact, but they aren't relevant to the implication of difficulty... not until one evaluates the content.

The length of time that a group plays while moving is not a relevant data set to make any point.  It's grossly incomplete.

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Just popping in to say that Phantom Regiment was absolutely robbed in 1989 and it was extremely tacky of SCV to essentially march onto the field the exact same show as 1988

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2 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

I'm pretty sure that comparative drill and music difficulty is an observable and experiential fact.  Tempo, step size, rhythmic velocity, tonal key center, valve combinations, etc.  These things determine difficulty and appropriate drill/music combinations.  Timings may be fact, but they aren't relevant to the implication of difficulty... not until one evaluates the content.

The length of time that a group plays while moving is not a relevant data set to make any point.  It's grossly incomplete.

Yes, there are other facts that one might wish (or not) to consider as part of forming an opinion.

(That said, the parts where Bluecoats '19 move and play simultaneously don't appear to me to feature larger or faster steps than the parts where Bluecoats '89 did so.)

Some people's preferred drum corps / marching band aesthetic is for groups that don't appear to be standing around doing nothing. (Yes, that's an exaggration.) For such observers, the various elements you describe may not matter. I merely provided them with two data points to consider. If you're intent on convincing them they're wrong to feel the way they feel, then you should absolutely provide them with other data points explaining how it's harder to play on three valves than on two valves or whatever else you feel will win that argument.

As for myself, when the mood takes me, I'm going to keep pulling out the stopwatch and will enjoy any complaints that follow.

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32 minutes ago, Cappybara said:

Just popping in to say that Phantom Regiment was absolutely robbed in 1989 and it was extremely tacky of SCV to essentially march onto the field the exact same show as 1988

Too soon.

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