Madison Scouts now officially co-ed

[Forevergreen]

I truly understand tradition.  Do they still have a Boy Scout Charter ?  I know BSA expanded membership to both sexes.  I can say there is something to be gained at the same time by belonging to an organization that’s all male or female.  I think it to potentially be an exercise in understanding yourself better and how you relate to your own sex rather than a lot of the connotations of the no boys or girls allowed sentiment. I hope it works for them. Regardless, what I am fearing most is the loss of another corps, not because of this action though, just whatever is going on at The Scouts can be changed.  I hope, regardless of competitiveness, the members get a lifetime experience.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Forevergreen

[phan771]

10 minutes ago, westcoastblue said:

Well, much to say about both quoted reactions, but I will try to keep it brief. Your assumption that I am a Baby Boomer is incorrect, unthoughtful, ill-timed, and deprecating of your intended assertion(s). I spend my career immersed with students aged 14–24.  My interactions and outcomes in these regards are quite successful and internationally known. You misread that I was anti-Scouts; snap emotions and hate are strong deterrents to logic, calm, and open-mindedness. I love the Scouts and want to see them win DCI again, soon. The current members will be bombarded with questions all summer long regarding their reactions to the corps going co-ed. These questions will come from supporters, haters, family, friends, those informed as to the organization's history, those familiar with the inner workings of drum corps, those not familiar, etc. Speeches/talks have been given, and will be given to members at the start of show days and rehearsal days regarding the corps' future and the role the current members will play in this monumental turn of events (Some could see this as time waisted, delaying the corps from much needed changes and cleaning of the 2019 production). Over the course of the summer members will look at DCP and other social-based platforms, reading offerings that will stir their emotions, thought processes, and stances. The fact that this season could now be seen as a "place holder" or "transitional season" could diminish the value of every drop of sweat, strained muscle, and head and heart effort that each member of the 2019 Madison Scouts invests in this year's production. I do not think we can simply state that the 2019 members will not react negatively in any way to the "going co-ed" news. Yes, this generation is extremely resilient in many ways. Yes, they are much more inclusive and diverse in their views of humanity than previous generations. Yes, they are strong and open-minded unlike any generation before them. But, to assume they are not feeling, emotionally-driven, seeking-truth, needing perspective and at times feeling underneath strained-scrutiny and maturity as to what is right for the organization, right now and in the future, right for them in 2019, is shallow and greatly examples unawareness and insensitivity. 

THIS!!! It seems that Scouts have long been inclusive and open-minded, but this fact does not negate that drum corps members of any generation do not have feelings, summer struggles, etc. All positive vibes to the 2019 Madison Scouts. KSA. 

[derbydawg]

16 minutes ago, westcoastblue said:

Well, much to say about both quoted reactions, but I will try to keep it brief. Your assumption that I am a Baby Boomer is incorrect, unthoughtful, ill-timed, and deprecating of your intended assertion(s). I spend my career immersed with students aged 14–24.  My interactions and outcomes in these regards are quite successful and internationally known. You misread that I was anti-Scouts; snap emotions and hate are strong deterrents to logic, calm, and open-mindedness. I love the Scouts and want to see them win DCI again, soon. The current members will be bombarded with questions all summer long regarding their reactions to the corps going co-ed. These questions will come from supporters, haters, family, friends, those informed as to the organization's history, those familiar with the inner workings of drum corps, those not familiar, etc. Speeches/talks have been given, and will be given to members at the start of show days and rehearsal days regarding the corps' future and the role the current members will play in this monumental turn of events (Some could see this as time waisted, delaying the corps from much needed changes and cleaning of the 2019 production). Over the course of the summer members will look at DCP and other social-based platforms, reading offerings that will stir their emotions, thought processes, and stances. The fact that this season could now be seen as a "place holder" or "transitional season" could diminish the value of every drop of sweat, strained muscle, and head and heart effort that each member of the 2019 Madison Scouts invests in this year's production. I do not think we can simply state that the 2019 members will not react negatively in any way to the "going co-ed" news. Yes, this generation is extremely resilient in many ways. Yes, they are much more inclusive and diverse in their views of humanity than previous generations. Yes, they are strong and open-minded unlike any generation before them. But, to assume they are not feeling, emotionally-driven, seeking-truth, needing perspective and at times feeling underneath strained-scrutiny and maturity as to what is right for the organization, right now and in the future, right for them in 2019, is shallow and greatly examples unawareness and insensitivity. 

BOOM! Mic drop.  Owned by logic. Go 2019 Scouts, This summer is about you and what YOU bring to the field. NOTHING ELSE!

[N.E. Brigand]

I remember when the Catholic school my cousin attended went co-ed after several decades of being boys-only. There was a huge outcry. Now, more than 25 years later, it seems that everyone takes their co-ed status for granted -- and checking the Wikipedia page on the school, I find that 17 of the school's 39 state athletic championships have been earned by the girls.

So I hope that this decision works out for the best for Madison, and that 25+ years hence, we all think nothing of it. But it makes sense that there will be some hard feelings now.

[Jeff Ream]

9 hours ago, GREENBLUE said:

But your talented male student can’t march Crossmen Color Guard or many years Phantom Color Guard. How about basically getting kicked out of the corps the next year after marching phantom or Crossmen because you’re a male and the corps is going in a new direction with their guard to all female. Hypocrisy? 

Oh wait .... that’s okay because it’s a design choice.

excellent point.

[seen-it-all]

1 hour ago, DAvery said:

So casting George Clooney or Olympia Snowe in the role of Eleanor Roosevelt would make no difference? Casting Meryl Streep as Annie would work? Casting Cary Grant instead of Sydney Poitier in "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" would make no difference? 

If there was an artistic reason for doing so, I’d certainly be willing to check it out on its own merits. Certainly just doing ONLY those things would almost always be accompanied by other changes as well in order to satisfy whatever that artistic vision may be, however. And not all choices to go those routes would be successful. But that’s how art works sometimes.

There was a movie released about 10 yrs ago (the name escapes me) about Bob Dylan, and the filmmaker decided to use 6 or 7 different actors to play the main role at different points in his life, including an african-american actor and also Cate Blanchett the actress. I remember it being quite interesting to watch for the risk-taking nature of it at the very least. It didn’t fare very well if I recall.

Then of course there was Orson Welles’ famous 1936 stage version of Macbeth with an all-black cast set in the Caribbean rather than Scotland. Not only was it received as a monumental artistic achievement for its time, it was a tremendous box office smash as well.

Point is, the examples you give most likely wouldn’t work on their own without making other changes at the same time, but that doesn’t mean that they automatically would never work. 

[JohnZ]

5 hours ago, jeffmolnar said:

He wasn’t wishing you dead. That’s a common expression.

not here.

posts removed.  carry on.

[bayareafan]

If there weren't a slew of other co-ed corps out there, then I'd view this as a positive development.  However, every corps out there is co-ed except for two, so it's not like there aren't a ton of choices for women that want to participate in this activity.  And as others have noted sometimes Phantom and others have elected to have all female guards and that hasn't really been controversial.  So I don't think there's a diversity issue in DCI.  I note that in other performing organizations there is often segregation based on gender.  There are all-male and all-female choirs for instance.  So I don't see diversity and inclusion as a problem for the activity as a whole.

I do think this creates a new problem for Madison and that is a matter of identity.  Madison has been since it's inception viewed as a masculine corps.  That's a key part of it's identity.  That will now be lost and Madison will need to create a new identity.  That's isn't the end of the world.  Corps have done so.  BD in my view is the most notable case of this.  For years BD was the Jazz Corps.  Every show featured hard-driving jazz music or jazz-oriented latin music.  That was their thing.  You never looked to BD for great GE or anything like that.  They just played challenging jazz music and marched really well (though yes I agree they marched "less" than some others.)  Back say 12 years ago or so they simply changed.  No fanfare about it, they just changed.  Today they are by no means a Jazz Corps.  I'd say that today their identity is probably as the most artistic corps in the activity.  Their entire approach to shows is now choreographed, props are used extensively, and their design team is led by a person that comes from a background in guard.  They haven't played a truly jazz focused show in years.  So a big change for them, but they clearly did it well.  But they were also a very successful corps before they ever started this change.

The challenge Madison will face is they've struggled a bit these past several years.  They now have to build a new identity while also improving their performance levels, show designs, etc. That's doable but it's another thing to worry about and to be blunt Madison's biggest problem - what lead them to their current challenging state - has been an inability to produce well designed productions.  The problem at Madison, from what I can see, has not been it's members, but rather it's leadership.  I'm sure they are all capable leaders, but the reality is that their leadership has not been able to orchestrate a breakout moment from Madison.  I don' think this change to co-ed is necessarily going to help with that.  I'm from the business world and you give a management team a few years to sort things out, but you don't give them forever.  The people that support Madison are right to be questioning the composition of the current management team.

Whatever happens, I certainly hope that the "New Madison" that emerges next year will be successful and will produce entertaining shows for the audience and for its members.  Over the years Madison has been one of my favorite corps to watch.  I would like to see it flourish with this new direction.

[corps8294]

Their have been some saying that the corps should go all out and change their name, now. Why can't they still be known as The Madison Scouts because women are in the ranks? There are probably a bunch of women out there that would love to be a part of that name. 

Second, The Cavaliers shouldn't be pressured, guilted , or shamed for not following the same path of the Scouts. I've already seen a few posts calling them out for remaining all male.

Edited July 8, 2019 by corps8294

[Cappybara]

1 hour ago, bayareafan said:

If there weren't a slew of other co-ed corps out there, then I'd view this as a positive development.  However, every corps out there is co-ed except for two, so it's not like there aren't a ton of choices for women that want to participate in this activity.  And as others have noted sometimes Phantom and others have elected to have all female guards and that hasn't really been controversial.  So I don't think there's a diversity issue in DCI.  I note that in other performing organizations there is often segregation based on gender.  There are all-male and all-female choirs for instance.  So I don't see diversity and inclusion as a problem for the activity as a whole.

I do think this creates a new problem for Madison and that is a matter of identity.  Madison has been since it's inception viewed as a masculine corps.  That's a key part of it's identity.  That will now be lost and Madison will need to create a new identity.  That's isn't the end of the world.  Corps have done so.  BD in my view is the most notable case of this.  For years BD was the Jazz Corps.  Every show featured hard-driving jazz music or jazz-oriented latin music.  That was their thing.  You never looked to BD for great GE or anything like that.  They just played challenging jazz music and marched really well (though yes I agree they marched "less" than some others.)  Back say 12 years ago or so they simply changed.  No fanfare about it, they just changed.  Today they are by no means a Jazz Corps.  I'd say that today their identity is probably as the most artistic corps in the activity.  Their entire approach to shows is now choreographed, props are used extensively, and their design team is led by a person that comes from a background in guard.  They haven't played a truly jazz focused show in years.  So a big change for them, but they clearly did it well.  But they were also a very successful corps before they ever started this change.

The challenge Madison will face is they've struggled a bit these past several years.  They now have to build a new identity while also improving their performance levels, show designs, etc. That's doable but it's another thing to worry about and to be blunt Madison's biggest problem - what lead them to their current challenging state - has been an inability to produce well designed productions.  The problem at Madison, from what I can see, has not been it's members, but rather it's leadership.  I'm sure they are all capable leaders, but the reality is that their leadership has not been able to orchestrate a breakout moment from Madison.  I don' think this change to co-ed is necessarily going to help with that.  I'm from the business world and you give a management team a few years to sort things out, but you don't give them forever.  The people that support Madison are right to be questioning the composition of the current management team.

Whatever happens, I certainly hope that the "New Madison" that emerges next year will be successful and will produce entertaining shows for the audience and for its members.  Over the years Madison has been one of my favorite corps to watch.  I would like to see it flourish with this new direction.

This thread is about the madison scouts so ill keep this brief: 

your assertion that the Blue Devils arent a jazz-focused corps anymore is false.

carry on