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Madison Scouts now officially co-ed

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2 hours ago, MikeD said:

Not sure how your son has a "loss of options". He can still try out for all of the same corps he could have last year. Your daughter has one more choice than she had before is the sum difference in the Scouts expanding their potential member base. 

IMO the Scouts made the change to open up the potential member pool to attract as much talent as they can, regardless of gender. This is but one piece of the puzzle.

Well, he does lose the option of the all-male version of Scouts with Cavies being the only all-male corps now, and if many posters on this thread had their way there would be no all-male option at all in the future.  My son is a hardcore hockey player and likes the brotherhood/bond of that athletic experience, thus had interest in Scouts since in his mind it offered the kind of commardarie he finds in hockey with the guys he plays with.  Actually, my daughter reacted the most negative to the news of Scouts going coed, she thinks it will change their entire vibe and she digs the “Mighty Men” thing they have.  

Also- I completely agree the decision to go coed was made to widen the talent pool and attract more kids to audition.

Edited by Guitar1974

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12 minutes ago, Guitar1974 said:

Well, he does lose the option of the all-male version of Scouts with Cavies being the only all-male corps now, and if many posters on this thread had their way there would be no all-male option at all in the future.  My son is a hardcore hockey player and likes the brotherhood/bond of that athletic experience, thus had interest in Scouts since in his mind it offered the kind of commardarie he finds in hockey with the guys he plays with.  Actually, my daughter reacted the most negative to the news of Scouts going coed, she thinks it will change their entire vibe and she digs the “Mighty Men” thing they have.  

‘Merica 

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2 hours ago, ndkbass said:

Ok.  What if they had only amended the policy to allow transmen, instead of anyone regardless of gender identity or biological sex?  This policy change largely occurred, if I understand the history correctly, because of out transmen wanting to audition and being denied.  Additionally, how can anyone say that a transperson (in this case a transwomen) had not already marched the corps or is currently marching, but is/was not out (meaning they still present as a biological male/masculine gender identity?  We cannot.  That is one of the chief reasons I think this is a great move by the organization.  It recognizes that the Madison swagger, and the superman suit, is not something just appreciated by and aspired to by heterosexual and heteronormative men, but by a wide swath of people from various gender identities, biological sexes, and sexual orientations.  For example, one of Komnick's own daughters is named Madison.  That is how much he loves the corps and how deeply his experience moved him.  How awesome would it be for her to be able to march and experience the same camaraderie that he did?!?!?!  Furthermore, the corps has come along way in its membership.  I have heard plenty of (horrifying) stories from back in the day about how masculinity was portrayed by various members in quite homophobic (and violent) ways that would never have been tolerated by membership or staff when I was marching, and I am glad for that.

Alrighty then. I honestly don't even know how to respond to that. I would probably need to read it again a few times. 

With regards to CK having a Daughter named Madison, that's great. Doesn't change the fact that he has presided over the worst and most failed period in the Madison Scouts history.

Lastly, you say that you heard "horrifying stories from BITD about masculinity being portrayed by various members in homophobic and violent ways"?  I marched in the Madison Scouts almost 40 years ago and I never saw or heard any member being homophobic or violent. We were a brotherhood regardless of sexual orientation. We all stood in the circle to sing "You'll Never Walk Alone" arm in arm with our Brothers, without a concern about who was gay or straight. It didn't matter. We were all Madison Scouts, a special fraternity that we were all very fortunate to experience. How dare you make this accusation. Without siting specific examples, you can not be believed.  Again, shame on you for levying this charge against the fine Madison Scout alumni.

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10 hours ago, ndkbass said:

Ok.  What if they had only amended the policy to allow transmen, instead of anyone regardless of gender identity or biological sex?  This policy change largely occurred, if I understand the history correctly, because of out transmen wanting to audition and being denied.  

You really think this was the driver of the change?  Uh. No. 

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11 hours ago, ndkbass said:

Yeah....no.  Not at all.  No one is saying that there cannot be an all-male corps, so chris7997 is just wrong in that regard.  Since you are an alumnus of Madison, would you feel the same way if it was Cavies and not Scouts?  Would chris7997?

To be fair, I'm saying there shouldn't be all-male corps just like there shouldn't be an all-white corps.

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9 hours ago, Guitar1974 said:

Well, he does lose the option of the all-male version of Scouts with Cavies being the only all-male corps now, and if many posters on this thread had their way there would be no all-male option at all in the future.

We will agree to disagree on this...IMO putting qualifiers on it, such as "all-male" in this case, does not reduce his ability to audition anyplace he desires. You can add all sorts of qualifying factors that will limit something, like saying he does not have the ability to try out for an all-left-handed corps, to be totally silly about it.

Personally, I wish the Cavies would decide it is in their best interest to change as well, but I do not favor outside pressure forcing them to change their rules. If they stay all-male, fine by me. If they change too, also fine by me. If the Scouts did not make the change, I'd be fine with that too. Since they are making the change, great.

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9 hours ago, FlamMan said:

Alrighty then. I honestly don't even know how to respond to that. I would probably need to read it again a few times. 

With regards to CK having a Daughter named Madison, that's great. Doesn't change the fact that he has presided over the worst and most failed period in the Madison Scouts history.

Lastly, you say that you heard "horrifying stories from BITD about masculinity being portrayed by various members in homophobic and violent ways"?  I marched in the Madison Scouts almost 40 years ago and I never saw or heard any member being homophobic or violent. We were a brotherhood regardless of sexual orientation. We all stood in the circle to sing "You'll Never Walk Alone" arm in arm with our Brothers, without a concern about who was gay or straight. It didn't matter. We were all Madison Scouts, a special fraternity that we were all very fortunate to experience. How dare you make this accusation. Without siting specific examples, you can not be believed.  Again, shame on you for levying this charge against the fine Madison Scout alumni.

I heard this story from an alumnus in my extended family who marched in the late 70s and early 80s (and who continues to volunteer with the corps to this day):

After rehearsals (at various times of the year, so camps or all-days), some members would go into the downtown area and wait outside bars that gay men frequented until they closed so they could verbally harass and physically assault people.  That is a crime, and deeply despicable, and I do not doubt the veracity of the story.  I also have heard from other members in the mid 80s about wearing earrings on certain ears to signify their orientation, and how that was always questioned regardless of which ear/what signification was being presented.  Whether or not you participated or were aware of these reprehensible activities does not mean that it did not happen.

 

Also, your unwillingness to engage with the matter of transrights completely is rather revealing.

 

I am not saying I am a fan of Komnick's decision making in regards to staff hiring, show design, or anything else.  I have been, and probably will continue to be, a vocal critic of the current administration in general.  Heck, I missed part of an ensemble block in 2009 talking with him about all the issues I saw, and I had no problem calling out Dann to his face during corps meetings.  However, that does not prevent me from approving of and celebrating this decision.

 

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2 hours ago, HockeyDad said:

You really think this was the driver of the change?  Uh. No. 

Yes, Yes I do.  As far as I know, from various reports and alumni discussions that I am familiar with (some of which I could go dig up from threads from prior years), the corps had prevented out transmen from auditioning in the last three years (in fact, they had told them to march elsewhere like Blue Stars).  This was certainly a root cause of the discussion for an inclusive membership policy.  Whether or not it was the final straw is a different matter entirely.  But transrights are a part of an inclusive gender policy.  Transpeople are people, transmen are men, and transwomen are women.

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1 hour ago, dbc03 said:

To be fair, I'm saying there shouldn't be all-male corps just like there shouldn't be an all-white corps.

what about the CMCC (Minisink) Warriors or Brooklyn Hilltoppers or New Jersey Gay Blades (all 3 took great pride in being units of only Blacks)?

Or Nisei Ambassadors (only Japanese Americans) or early years of Mandarins (only Chinese)?  How about Aimaichi today?

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3 minutes ago, xandandl said:

what about the CMCC (Minisink) Warriors or Brooklyn Hilltoppers or New Jersey Gay Blades (all 3 took great pride in being units of only Blacks)?

Or Nisei Ambassadors (only Japanese Americans) or early years of Mandarins (only Chinese)?  How about Aimaichi today?

Know if at least one corps that was all white as per sponsor pressure. That had more to do with keeping out “them” than being proud so not a correct comparison 

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