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"All they do is stand around and play!!!" A Comparison


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1 hour ago, Tupid_06 said:

I just started watching the video and I can already tell you that they actually did march and play quite a bit in BD 2014, and I already know the conclusion you came to within the first two minutes of watching. Had you chosen BD 2017 I think you would get a much different result.

So that was my initial reaction to these selections as well: BD 2014 was the show where the general fan response was more or less: "I'm glad they're finally doing a show I like", and part of that appeal was that it more closely resembled shows of the past. Likewise in 2017, there was this rather contentious thread (it's a real shame it got shut down) responding not just to BD's show of that year but to a general trend that not just the author (who is a fan of BD 2014) but a number of others (39 people "liked" the original post) thought they were observing:

Segmentation: How DCI Has Gotten More Complicated ... And Less Difficult

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39 minutes ago, Tupid_06 said:

You said that the box rotation in the opener for '91 Star was the hardest thing they did all show. What would you say the hardest thing is that BD did in 2017 drill-wise?

 

Edit: I'm asking for an example from 2017, because I think that their 2014 show has many exposed visual moments in their drill while the 2017 show does not have nearly as many. I already know my answer, but it would be interesting to hear another opinion on this.

From the video link that I gave:

4:52 if everyone is doing their job, nobody goes to the hospital.

11:11-11:36ish is very unorthodox.  It probably took some time to get those forms to hold up with that movement.

12:18-12:42 pretty much everything on the field is complicated.  Lots of small rotating forms with multiple points of dress.

They are playing pretty heavy on all of these.

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53 minutes ago, jjeffeory said:

Star didn't use flugelhorns.

Very interesting take. I'll agree with about 80 percent of what you've said, but I don't feel that you enough credit for some of what Star was playing in that show and also I think the third valve is a trivial addition to give credit for using as most of the brass are used to that anyway. Sorry trombones.

The counter motion and block drill issue is particular to Star and Zingali. Had you'd show a Brubaker or Gaines/Cavalier drill, you'd see more of that. Even Madison Scouts had much more block drill back then. Zingali was much more know for organic and curvilinear visuals.

The show arrangement comments are pretty specific to how Jim Prime writes and interprets the source versus how  Glyde/Downey et al arrange music.

 

2014 is quite different design aesthetic from this year for sure.  The visual part has changed yet again, possibly due to SCV and WGIs influence.

Thanks for your thoughts. They're entertaining and informative.

Thanks for bringing up the valve thing.  I neglected to mention in the comments that everything that I am saying about the G horns is the same for the Bb.  Once you get past the written 2nd space Ab on the staff on any of these suckers, you just don't really need that 3rd valve, no matter what you are playing on.  So playing upper register ostinatos on Bb are just as straight forward as they are on G.  The advantage is merely 3 half steps on the G horns with respect to what we hear being played.

Also, given the objective... it may come across that I am trivializing the Star score.  That's not intended.  It's complicated music and it's not easy to play.  My commentary was focusing on how the music is made accessible by the drill and how the drill is often made accessible by the scoring... and that is universal to show design in any era.

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Don't have a lot to add other than: thanks to @cfirwin3 for his thoughts, and to everyone for the thoughtful discussion here. As a more recent fan of drum corps (relatively speaking; introduced in 06', didn't follow closely until a few years after that) it's enlightening to finally learn a little more about this argument that I never really understood, since I didn't grow up with those shows. Bravo!

Also to @N.E. Brigand for linking that thread on Segmentation. Good read! (for the first few pages 😜)

As a young band director myself, I'm still training myself to occasionally "turn off" my analytical brain and just enjoy the show. :music: Regardless of comparing eras against each other, the complexity in what of asked of these kids not just physically and musically, but mentally and emotionally, in order to perform these more contemporary programs, is nothing short of amazing. 

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46 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:

So that was my initial reaction to these selections as well: BD 2014 was the show where the general fan response was more or less: "I'm glad they're finally doing a show I like", and part of that appeal was that it more closely resembled shows of the past. Likewise in 2017, there was this rather contentious thread (it's a real shame it got shut down) responding not just to BD's show of that year but to a general trend that not just the author (who is a fan of BD 2014) but a number of others (39 people "liked" the original post) thought they were observing:

Segmentation: How DCI Has Gotten More Complicated ... And Less Difficult

The gremlins won't let me reply to you any longer than this.  I keep getting a 500 error. ????

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59 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

From the video link that I gave:

4:52 if everyone is doing their job, nobody goes to the hospital.

11:11-11:36ish is very unorthodox.  It probably took some time to get those forms to hold up with that movement.

12:18-12:42 pretty much everything on the field is complicated.  Lots of small rotating forms with multiple points of dress.

They are playing pretty heavy on all of these.

My answer would be the part from about 12:05-12:30, but even so, it's just a few small groups of rotating lines and boxes that doesn't come across as visually impressive as what Star did with 42 (?) people in one rotating box. The BD 2017 show lacked a lot of the visual velocity that made other shows exciting, and it would have been nice to have more of those moments to compliment some of the music they played. 

This year, SCV seems to be one of the main corps that lacks that kind of velocity in their drill...although I suspect that a new ending will be put in and then they will have a very similar formula to their show from last year that put most of the visual demand in that last minute. I think that having only 30 seconds to a minute of exciting drill isn't enough considering that corps like the Cavaliers and Cadets in the 2000's were exciting or interesting to watch for nearly their entire show. I think BAC has the most exciting visual program this year, but I still prefer what most drum corps were doing a decade ago, and in some cases, even 2 decades ago or more. 

 

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1 minute ago, Tupid_06 said:

My answer would be the part from about 12:05-12:30, but even so, it's just a few small groups of rotating lines and boxes that doesn't come across as visually impressive as what Star did with 42 (?) people in one rotating box. The BD 2017 show lacked a lot of the visual velocity that made other shows exciting, and it would have been nice to have more of those moments to compliment some of the music they played. 

This year, SCV seems to be one of the main corps that lacks that kind of velocity in their drill...although I suspect that a new ending will be put in and then they will have a very similar formula to their show from last year that put most of the visual demand in that last minute. I think that having only 30 seconds to a minute of exciting drill isn't enough considering that corps like the Cavaliers and Cadets in the 2000's were exciting or interesting to watch for nearly their entire show. I think BAC has the most exciting visual program this year by far, but I still prefer what most drum corps were doing a decade ago, and in some cases, even 2 decades ago or more. 

 

Yep.  But that's an aesthetic issue, rather than a difficulty one.  I definitely don't disagree with the notion that the aesthetics of some of these designs are challenging to appreciate, much less enjoy.

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i'd like to see a similar comparison between bd 2014 to scv 2018 to see just how much, if any, things changed in 4 years as far as rewarding staging and choreography vs simultaneous demand with marching and playing. 

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6 minutes ago, Lance said:

i'd like to see a similar comparison between bd 2014 to scv 2018 to see just how much, if any, things changed in 4 years as far as rewarding staging and choreography vs simultaneous demand with marching and playing. 

Edit: nevermind.  Missread your post.

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20 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

Yep.  But that's an aesthetic issue, rather than a difficulty one.  I definitely don't disagree with the notion that the aesthetics of some of these designs are challenging to appreciate, much less enjoy.

I would say those are both issues in regard to BD 2017 and some of the more modern shows and their drill. Sure, they are doing some difficult things while playing, but a lot of the time it doesn't involve marching and doesn't leave them as exposed to error.

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