"All they do is stand around and play!!!" A Comparison

[N.E. Brigand]

12 hours ago, bayareafan said:

I think the overall trend in DCI has been to much greater variety in programming.

This is a point worth further consideration.

In previous discussions, I've found this general trend:

--When people who encountered drum corps relatively recently view old shows, they think those old shows all look and sound the same.

--When people who encountered drum corps many years ago view new shows--particularly if they haven't been following drum corps closely in the interim--they think the new shows all look and sound the same.

Obviously there are exceptions. But I've seen comments like this often enough to say the pattern exists. And neither side is necessarily wrong.

[cfirwin3]

40 minutes ago, Minimaster said:

The way you say it in the video makes you sound uneducated on the activity.

I’d half expect you to tell us that you’re going to do Star 94 next.

 

The way I say it in the video is pretty straight forward.  But if you aren't versed in brass instrument construction and capabilities, then what I am saying may project the wrong idea.

Star '94 is known as Brass Theatre, by the way.  A gig that they did with the Canadian Brass. 😉

[cfirwin3]

35 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:

This is a point worth further consideration.

In previous discussions, I've found this general trend:

--When people who encountered drum corps relatively recently view old shows, they think those old shows all look and sound the same.

--When people who encountered drum corps many years ago view new shows--particularly if they haven't been following drum corps closely in the interim--they think the new shows all look and sound the same.

Obviously there are exceptions. But I've seen comments like this often enough to say the pattern exists. And neither side is necessarily wrong.

I don't listen to hip-hop... It's all the same.

[N.E. Brigand]

1 hour ago, cfirwin3 said:

I don't listen to hip-hop... It's all the same.

And plenty of popular music listeners feel that way about classical music.

[cfirwin3]

14 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:

And plenty of popular music listeners feel that way about classical music.

Indeed.

[saxfreq1128]

23 hours ago, Tupid_06 said:

I would say those are both issues in regard to BD 2017 and some of the more modern shows and their drill. Sure, they are doing some difficult things while playing, but a lot of the time it doesn't involve marching and doesn't leave them as exposed to error.

Bear with me for a second. But: Have you ever heard of HIIT (high intensity interval training)? It’s a workout technique in which you alternate between a high-intensity exercise (say, sprinting) and a medium or low-intensity exercise (say, walking, jogging, etc.) at set time intervals — say, 30 seconds.  It is considered to be one of the most effective, and also tiring and physically demanding, cardio workouts you can subject yourself to. I do it 3-4x a week with my trainer, and it kills me every time.

I bring it up because if you look close, BD’s design strategy in moments like “Flight of the Bumblebee” has a pretty funny resemblance to HIIT. Their take on the song is arranged like so: sprinting / stationary playing with dancing / sprinting / playing while moving / sprinting /  stationary horn runs / uptempo marching+playing. That is the entire outline of “Flight of the Bumblebee” as BD performed it in 2017.

So, to my point. This is a conversation about difficulty.  Anytime someone says BD or any another corps doesn’t march + play enough they usually follow it by saying or implying that therefore shows today aren’t as difficult. The implication is that marching+playing sits atop the difficulty hierarchy, and everything else — playing+dancing, etc. — is automatically less difficult. Mind you, no one who says that has any data to that effect; even that big BD/Star comparison thread someone linked to rested on pretty big assumptions about how “easy” it is to dance while playing. At the very least, people who feel this way need to admit that it’s complete conjecture. I have a feeling that despite the overwhelming number of opinions about dance on DCP, very few people here have actually danced in some trained, organized capacity. 

Anyway: Here we have a corps who’s approach to “Flight of the Bumblebee” — a fast, tricky, nimble, indisputably difficult chart — is for the full horn-line to perform it while doing High-intensity interval training — a BEAST of a cardio regimen, something that was designed to exhaust and challenge you.  

Here’s what I’m saying. If you’re only evaluating drum corps from the strict perspective of “Are they playing while marching?”, I think you overlook some pretty big nuances like this, nuances and truths about what it takes to perform these shows that simply cannot be boiled down to “playing+marching = most difficult.” That attitude is how you get comments like yours above: “Sure, they are doing some difficult things while playing.” Well, no — in fact, they’re doing a lot more than that, including sprinting before AND after playing, which in no way resembles the not-at-all-athletic corps you seem to be describing.  

In order to see that though — and I’m gonna be a broken record about this — people need to start paying attention to what IS happening on the field rather than what they WANT to be happening on the field. I completely accept that today’s style just isn’t for some people. But the argument that it’s EASIER is completely absurd. No one who’s really paying attention can in their right mind walk away with the sense that drum corps today is easy. I think you it to owe the kids on the field to be a wiser and more empathetic audience than that, because — unlike us — they are busting their tails out there doing it. 

Edited July 11, 2019 by saxfreq1128

[cfirwin3]

33 minutes ago, saxfreq1128 said:

Bear with me for a second. But: Have you ever heard of HIIT (high intensity interval training)? It’s a workout technique in which you alternate between a high-intensity exercise (say, sprinting) and a medium or low-intensity exercise (say, walking, jogging, etc.) at set time intervals — say, 30 seconds.  It is considered to be one of the most effective, and also tiring and physically demanding, cardio workouts you can subject yourself to. I do it 3-4x a week with my trainer, and it kills me every time.

I bring it up because if you look close, BD’s design strategy in moments like “Flight of the Bumblebee” has a pretty funny resemblance to HIIT. Their take on the song is arranged like so: sprinting / stationary playing with dancing / sprinting / playing while moving / sprinting /  stationary horn runs / uptempo marching+playing. That is the entire outline of “Flight of the Bumblebee” as BD performed it in 2017.

So, to my point. This is a conversation about difficulty.  Anytime someone says BD or any another corps doesn’t march + play enough they usually follow it by saying or implying that therefore shows today aren’t as difficult. The implication is that marching+playing sits atop the difficulty hierarchy, and everything else — playing+dancing, etc. — is automatically less difficult. Mind you, no one who says that has any data to that effect; even that big BD/Star comparison thread someone linked to rested on pretty big assumptions about how “easy” it is to dance while playing. At the very least, people who feel this way need to admit that it’s complete conjecture. I have a feeling that despite the overwhelming number of opinions about dance on DCP, very few people here have actually danced in some trained, organized capacity. 

Anyway: Here we have a corps who’s approach to “Flight of the Bumblebee” — a fast, tricky, nimble, indisputably difficult chart — is for the full horn-line to perform it while doing High-intensity interval training — a BEAST of a cardio regimen, something that was designed to exhaust and challenge you.  

Here’s what I’m saying. If you’re only evaluating drum corps from the strict perspective of “Are they playing while marching?”, I think you overlook some pretty big nuances like this, nuances and truths about what it takes to perform these shows that simply cannot be boiled down to “playing+marching = most difficult.” That attitude is how you get comments like yours above: “Sure, they are doing some difficult things while playing.” Well, no — in fact, they’re doing a lot more than that, including sprinting before AND after playing, which in no way resembles the not-at-all-athletic corps you seem to be describing.  

In order to see that though — and I’m gonna be a broken record about this — people need to start paying attention to what IS happening on the field rather than what they WANT to be happening on the field. I completely accept that today’s style just isn’t for some people. But the argument that it’s EASIER is completely absurd. No one who’s really paying attention can in their right mind walk away with the sense that drum corps today is easy. I think you it to owe the kids on the field to be a wiser and more empathetic audience than that, because — unlike us — they are busting their tails out there doing it. 

You got the point of the exercise.

[Tupid_06]

1 hour ago, saxfreq1128 said:

Bear with me for a second. But: Have you ever heard of HIIT (high intensity interval training)? It’s a workout technique in which you alternate between a high-intensity exercise (say, sprinting) and a medium or low-intensity exercise (say, walking, jogging, etc.) at set time intervals — say, 30 seconds.  It is considered to be one of the most effective, and also tiring and physically demanding, cardio workouts you can subject yourself to. I do it 3-4x a week with my trainer, and it kills me every time.

I bring it up because if you look close, BD’s design strategy in moments like “Flight of the Bumblebee” has a pretty funny resemblance to HIIT. Their take on the song is arranged like so: sprinting / stationary playing with dancing / sprinting / playing while moving / sprinting /  stationary horn runs / uptempo marching+playing. That is the entire outline of “Flight of the Bumblebee” as BD performed it in 2017.

So, to my point. This is a conversation about difficulty.  Anytime someone says BD or any another corps doesn’t march + play enough they usually follow it by saying or implying that therefore shows today aren’t as difficult. The implication is that marching+playing sits atop the difficulty hierarchy, and everything else — playing+dancing, etc. — is automatically less difficult. Mind you, no one who says that has any data to that effect; even that big BD/Star comparison thread someone linked to rested on pretty big assumptions about how “easy” it is to dance while playing. At the very least, people who feel this way need to admit that it’s complete conjecture. I have a feeling that despite the overwhelming number of opinions about dance on DCP, very few people here have actually danced in some trained, organized capacity. 

Anyway: Here we have a corps who’s approach to “Flight of the Bumblebee” — a fast, tricky, nimble, indisputably difficult chart — is for the full horn-line to perform it while doing High-intensity interval training — a BEAST of a cardio regimen, something that was designed to exhaust and challenge you.  

Here’s what I’m saying. If you’re only evaluating drum corps from the strict perspective of “Are they playing while marching?”, I think you overlook some pretty big nuances like this, nuances and truths about what it takes to perform these shows that simply cannot be boiled down to “playing+marching = most difficult.” That attitude is how you get comments like yours above: “Sure, they are doing some difficult things while playing.” Well, no — in fact, they’re doing a lot more than that, including sprinting before AND after playing, which in no way resembles the not-at-all-athletic corps you seem to be describing.  

In order to see that though — and I’m gonna be a broken record about this — people need to start paying attention to what IS happening on the field rather than what they WANT to be happening on the field. I completely accept that today’s style just isn’t for some people. But the argument that it’s EASIER is completely absurd. No one who’s really paying attention can in their right mind walk away with the sense that drum corps today is easy. I think you it to owe the kids on the field to be a wiser and more empathetic audience than that, because — unlike us — they are busting their tails out there doing it. 

I didn't say what they are doing is not difficult, and you did point that out...however, I think we are interpreting things a little differently. You seem focused on difficulty from a performance standpoint, and I am more focused on difficulty from a design standpoint. Not sure if that makes sense, but I'll try and explain:

I think the beginning of the show is done about as well as they can do from a performance standpoint. I'm not expecting them to be running and gunning to the 2008 Cavaliers drill while jumping over each other while playing Flight of the Bumblebee. I know what their limitations are, and I think what they are doing visually along with the music is fine for the most part. Most of my issues with the show come from the ballad onward.

 From the design standpoint, I think that what they do doesn't expose them to error as much as...say...Carolina Crown 2012 for example, or other shows where the corps are more focused visually on moving and acting as one unit most of the time. There is a lot of "individuality" going on in BD's show that make it nearly impossible to determine if what they are doing is actually clean and precise. How do you judge the cleanliness of something when there are so many different things going on and everything is different? Doing that eliminates the risk of making a definitive mistake, and I think it really limits how exposed you are compared to corps that behave more as a unit when they are marching or utilizing body movement...therefore I don't consider BD 2017 as difficult in that sense. Performing a show like Carolina Crown did in 2012, or any of the Gaines-era Cavalier shows opens the corps up to visual mistakes being made and easily caught, whereas a show designed more like BD 2017 masks finding any visual mistakes in many places by utilizing individual movement instead of movement that is the same across many people in a definitive formation. I hope that clarifies what I meant, because I feel like I'm saying something different than what you think. 

[jordsterr]

15 hours ago, Gantang said:

When rifle tosses began to draw more applause and standing Os than solos it was evident that the activity had shifted to visual and away from music. Two and four bar phrases and lots of movement has replaced great ensemble work.

IMHO, this is a direct result of Winterguard where every toss gets applause no matter what is happening musically.  At a WGI show, it does not bother me at all.  At a band or corps show, it drives me nuts because applause is happening often at awkward spots.  I totally agree that, at least in some regard, there has been a shift to visual.

[Ghost]

I do not think the BD OTL was difficult.  Not the walking company fronts or the playing.  When the Cadets began, Mr. Irwin was talking about something completely different than what the corps was doing.  When he started discussing the corps, it was "their playing while standing still".  Walking through tables in a box formation while playing easy music is not difficult.  Slow walking/playing as the Cadets form various curvature forms does not seem difficult to me.  But, I play left field at times.