explain to a 5th grader: sound design/engineering and the flo

[jwillis35]

1 hour ago, Rylan said:

I used to be a sound engineer and primarily focused on live sound. From what I have noticed from Flo is that they throw up just a few mics evenly spaced on the field and then add a couple of mics in front of the few speakers. The problem with this is that most corps now have 4+ speakers and are increasingly sculpting their sound by having the sound output of the soloists come from certain speakers. When Flo mics up a speaker or places their mic towards certain speakers, they often have a very unbalanced sound (e.g. loud soloist vs. very faint sound effects). 

Personally, I don't think Flo has nailed down their technique on sound at all this season. If it's any consolation though, it was way worse last year. 

This.  Flo can't connect to each corps' sound system because that only outputs the mallets/pit, some solos, and maybe narration/singing/audio clips. I believe Rylan is correct that the boom mics placed in the front are to pick up brass and percussion on the field, and they likely use a stereo pair up near the box to get the full blend of sound.  

As some have said they would likely get a better blend if they scrapped the boom mics at field level. Or perhaps push the back some, and higher to get more of the brass and percussion. But anything up near the pit is going to catch audio from the amps and pit. I would love to hear the mix if they would scrap the booms, use a stereo pair in the middle near the box, and 2 additional stereo pair located on the 30s and slightly lower. Tough to do with a crowd of people, but if they could rope off a few small areas this would produce a nice result. The stereo inputs coming from the 30s could be mixed in an lower levels with the main mix to create a wider pan area. Also, who ever handles the recording needs to be very careful with EQ, Compressors, range limiters, and have a good understanding of recording acoustic instruments in a mix with electronics and other pit voices. 

Overall I have enjoyed FLO and I like that they are trying to improve. I also like all the other things they are trying to do. It is a work in progress. It can't be easy with the ever-changing drum corps pit with all its' electronics, bass, voice, audio, and lots of mallets. And some of the sound mixers for the corps mix like they were doing a rock show. 

[OldSnareDrummer]

Whenever I think of DCI and sound engineers in the same breath, I always think back to those 1970s DCI DVDs and those goofy looking sound guys on the edge of the field with their Don Prudhomme drag racing ballcaps and their 70s sideburn/porn star moustaches. Talking real engineers. 

[Terri Schehr]

Just now, OldSnareDrummer said:

Whenever I think of DCI and sound engineers in the same breath, I always think back to those 1970s DCI DVDs and those goofy looking sound guys on the edge of the field with their Don Prudhomme drag racing ballcaps and their 70s sideburn/porn star moustaches. Talking real engineers. 

Ken Kobold. RIP. 

Edited July 11, 2019 by Terri Schehr

[OldSnareDrummer]

Well, Ken was an absolute legend and definitely a real engineer. From Ottawa, IL. 

[Gizmit26]

38 minutes ago, tedrick said:

During shows/competitions, does the soundboard operator/tech communicate in realtime with a staff member in the box? That would make sense wouldn't it -- ie: "bring up the tubas" "bring up the mellos" ect ect....

Yes, the soundboard operator communicates with one (or several) corps staff in the stands. Due to my seats on an aisle by the box, I sat next to all of these people at the Ankeny show last night. Each had a phone or ipad they were using to communicate in real time with the soundboard operator. A couple even wore headphones, which I assumed were to listen to a feed from the board. I spoke with most of them. They got real quiet and focused once the show started. 

[Glenn426]

1 hour ago, tedrick said:

I was at rehearsal on Tuesday and noticed mic pacs on several MMs -- my understanding is that about 20 MMs are on mic and are adjusted as needed by the soundboard operator --

To my Comments in Last night's  thread, Bluecoats are clearly mixing live music and adding voice elements to the life sound and pumping it through the speakers, Hard to hear but I could pick it up through the Flo broadcast using High end Senn headphones.. Mainly on sustains. They are getting so good it is imperceptible to most. 

1 hour ago, tedrick said:

During shows/competitions, does the soundboard operator/tech communicate in realtime with a staff member in the box? That would make sense wouldn't it -- ie: "bring up the tubas" "bring up the mellos" ect ect....

Yeah like mentioned right above, there are people in the stands who communicate with the person at field level if there any balance issues. There are also ipad program that links to the board where the person in the stands can manipulate levels using an ipad in the stands. But generally they create "scenes" that pre-program mic levels based on what section of the show they are in, Where Mics are turned on/off remotely based on the time of the show and what mics need to be used. Those scenes are pre-programmed and "mapped" into the whole show. So basically when a show starts the board op hits start and the levels are timed to the second with the show. 

1 hour ago, gak27 said:

That's a very good question, and one that never seems to come up much...and when it does, never seems to have any follow-on discussion...

In my opinion this would be the best solution. The Staff at each corps spends the whole summer trying to make the live sound that reaches the judges at the box the perfect mix, everything that they do with regards to mixing is geared towards this. so a mic array at the box level with stereo inputs would create the closest to a live read of a corps each night.. This would eliminate the excessive Electronic boom we are accustom to and would solve the perceived blend issues with mic'ing of instruments. You would however not be able to audibly tell the difference between live and modified sounds, which in the end is how the designers intended it to be. Flo I think it trying to put an emphasis on eliminating crowd noise from the broadcast but the live crowd noise is part of the experience.

42 minutes ago, jwillis35 said:

This.  Flo can't connect to each corps' sound system because that only outputs the mallets/pit, some solos, and maybe narration/singing/audio clips. I believe Rylan is correct that the boom mics placed in the front are to pick up brass and percussion on the field, and they likely use a stereo pair up near the box to get the full blend of sound.  

As some have said they would likely get a better blend if they scrapped the boom mics at field level. Or perhaps push the back some, and higher to get more of the brass and percussion. But anything up near the pit is going to catch audio from the amps and pit. I would love to hear the mix if they would scrap the booms, use a stereo pair in the middle near the box, and 2 additional stereo pair located on the 30s and slightly lower. Tough to do with a crowd of people, but if they could rope off a few small areas this would produce a nice result. The stereo inputs coming from the 30s could be mixed in an lower levels with the main mix to create a wider pan area. Also, who ever handles the recording needs to be very careful with EQ, Compressors, range limiters, and have a good understanding of recording acoustic instruments in a mix with electronics and other pit voices. 

Overall I have enjoyed FLO and I like that they are trying to improve. I also like all the other things they are trying to do. It is a work in progress. It can't be easy with the ever-changing drum corps pit with all its' electronics, bass, voice, audio, and lots of mallets. And some of the sound mixers for the corps mix like they were doing a rock show. 

This, Last night listening through my Denon SRW920 7.1 set up the back Surround channels where clipping at very low volume levels, They seems to have set the EQ to the max levels possible and it completely threw the sound quality to Poop. I had to put on my Headphones and listen through Stereo sound for the sound to be enjoyable.

[Jeff Ream]

3 hours ago, Rylan said:

I used to be a sound engineer and primarily focused on live sound. From what I have noticed from Flo is that they throw up just a few mics evenly spaced on the field and then add a couple of mics in front of the few speakers. The problem with this is that most corps now have 4+ speakers and are increasingly sculpting their sound by having the sound output of the soloists come from certain speakers. When Flo mics up a speaker or places their mic towards certain speakers, they often have a very unbalanced sound (e.g. loud soloist vs. very faint sound effects). 

Personally, I don't think Flo has nailed down their technique on sound at all this season. If it's any consolation though, it was way worse last year. 

i think the stadiums are part of the issue. One show recently the bleachers were really tight to the sideline. So mics were on top of everything. The other issue is they can never universally agree on how to place the mics in relation to where the corps place the speakers.

[Precious Roy]

Could the location of the mics that Flo uses just be a legacy of prior best practices, from a time before the corps got all sophisticated with their own sound mixing? Perhaps those best practices just need to evolve to catch up to the new (performance side) state of the art.