Spatzzz Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 24 minutes ago, MusicManNJ said: Not technically wrong... using my eyes and ears as are others. The visual demand of Crown this year is higher than any other corps regarding field coverage, velocity, design. That is quantifiable... tempo, check. field coverage, check. design complexity, check. These are facts. Get out your Dr. Beat if you think I am incorrect. Whether it receives the credit from the judges remains to be seen. The thought that MORE NOTES and FASTER = BETTER is just dumb. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicManNJ Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Spatzzz said: The thought that MORE NOTES and FASTER = BETTER is just dumb. No your statement is because your are missing the entire discussion. Not what I am saying at all but if that is all you can understand so be it. I am saying the demand is different and how or if it is rewarded has changed over time and how/if the demand of Crown's show is rewarded remains to be seen. The scores last night reflects the fact that it very well may be. Time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 1 hour ago, MusicManNJ said: Nope... saying they way they judge is evolving (as it has over the past decades). What is rewarded from year to year DOES change. Let's see what is valued this year. I'm confused though, I thought you said your basis is quantifiable. Wouldn't it be neglect by the judges to not take into account objective things in favor of the subjective? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicManNJ Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Cappybara said: I'm confused though, I thought you said your basis is quantifiable. Wouldn't it be neglect by the judges to not take into account objective things in favor of the subjective? It has been subjective for as long as there have been judges (percussion got rid of the tick system in 1984 and some would argue that THIS was subjective). What is valued changes from over the years. Parking and playing was not looked on favorably fro a long period of time. Now it is. Most people would agree it is easier to park and play (and move and not play) than to move and play at the same time. Then you add in degree of difficulty of the music/drill and then see if it all makes sense from a construction standpoint. Crown has a more visually demanding and complex show... it is more musically demanding because the music is challenging and they are moving at the same time. What we do not know is if, as they clean up, this will be rewarded or if we are continuing down the Broadway/Cirque du Soleil pathway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 1 minute ago, MusicManNJ said: It has been subjective for as long as there have been judges (percussion got rid of the tick system in 1984 and some would argue that THIS was subjective). What is valued changes from over the years. Parking and playing was not looked on favorably fro a long period of time. Now it is. Most people would agree it is easier to park and play (and move and not play) than to move and play at the same time. Then you add in degree of difficulty of the music/drill and then see if it all makes sense from a construction standpoint. Crown has a more visually demanding and complex show... it is more musically demanding because the music is challenging and they are moving at the same time. What we do not know is if, as they clean up, this will be rewarded or if we are continuing down the Broadway/Cirque du Soleil pathway. If marching while playing is as obviously more difficult than what is being done by others as you say (you even suggested that most people would agree with this assessment), then wouldn't it be neglect by the judges to just subjectively choose to ignore this obvious higher level of demand? I feel like you are skirting around what you are actually trying to say by using the diplomatic phrase "the judges are 'valuing' something different" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 2 hours ago, Cappybara said: Right.... This is the equivalent of an figure skating fan at the olympics saying that they disagree with the judges with decades of experience that their favorite ice skater isn't performing the hardest routine. Like that's cool and all but still technically.. wrong Just keep in mind that this is still a subjective activity, and things are going to be looked at through a specific lens. So, it's not math or science, it's a person looking at a set of criteria on paper and assigning a number based on their interpretation of the sheets. ....or not. I don't think there are any conspiracies happening this year as much as the sheets and tastes have shifted. ...but this activity, figure skating, Ball room dancing, and many others definitely are subject and objective at the same time. Therefore, not perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 5 minutes ago, MusicManNJ said: or if we are continuing down the Broadway/Cirque du Soleil pathway. This will most likely continue for the time being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EDAVE Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 Do the music judges care if the performer is standing, sitting, or doing a 50 yard dash while playing. I don't think so. Now the GE judge might, however just because something is hard doesn't define effective. Even something hard performed well doesn't define effective. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRapp Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, MusicManNJ said: It has been subjective for as long as there have been judges (percussion got rid of the tick system in 1984 and some would argue that THIS was subjective). What is valued changes from over the years. Parking and playing was not looked on favorably fro a long period of time. Now it is. Most people would agree it is easier to park and play (and move and not play) than to move and play at the same time. Then you add in degree of difficulty of the music/drill and then see if it all makes sense from a construction standpoint. Crown has a more visually demanding and complex show... it is more musically demanding because the music is challenging and they are moving at the same time. What we do not know is if, as they clean up, this will be rewarded or if we are continuing down the Broadway/Cirque du Soleil pathway. DCI began to change when Blue Devils and Cadets convinced their peers that the activity would be better, more successful ($$$) and survive longer if it moved away from March faster/play faster. This made guard equally important on the field and on the sheets. It also made marching faster and in lock step formations less relevant and, ultimately, not as important as general effect. Guard doesn’t exist to march and play; and now, neither do the players. BD showed how guard would become actors on a stage. Now everyone acts on a stage. Often literally. The activity is no longer scorer largely on the number of marching steps you take or how much you play while marching. This is not opinion, it is fact—and it is intentional. If a corps believes they aren’t getting credit for things the activity no longer weighs the way it previously did, that’s on the corps director. Edited July 14, 2019 by MikeRapp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppycock Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 8 minutes ago, MikeRapp said: The activity is no longer scorer largely on the number of marching steps you take or how much you play while marching. This is not opinion, it is fact—and it is intentional. Absolutely! There is both physical and environmental demands that don’t necessarily equate to marching. There’s nothing definitive to determine such demands either. Transitions and resolutions are far more important to the overall visual elements within a production, relative to visual effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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