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cfirwin3

"Knock it off!!! It's apples and oranges, man!!" (Comparing the Cavies, with themselves)

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19 minutes ago, queenanne_1536 said:

Things you need to account for is how difficult it is from a breathing, phrasing and tone perspective when you're playing really exposed music like Star did in '91 and especially '93 and moving like that. Errors are so blatant because it's so difficult. You have to worry about dressing really difficult drill, marching in step, being where you are supposed to be, and playing. Super hard. Then you hit the ballad and have to come almost to a full stop with your entire being and have control after running like crazy. Go run a mile then come back and try to play a horn ballad with beautiful tone and great phrasing. Really, really, really hard to do.

Be aware that much of what you are talking about has application in the shows of today... but the aesthetic is different (and I think that is the true hang up for fans... not the difficulty).  See the comparison of Garfield '87 and BD '17.

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26 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

What are your specific assertions about these shows so that I can be sure to address them?

With your first comparison of SI & the BD, you mentioned from the beginning about difficulty of music, drill, and whether they were being done at the same time.  With the Cavies comparison, the 92 show was around three minutes completed before you said anything about the show.  Too much discussion about Brubaker.  With the 06 show, it was the way you said "no music"  and hand motions that made me end the video.  Maybe if you had mentioned somewhere in the first comparison what your personal likes/dislikes are, I'd understand your comments.  Then again, it's probably better we didn't know.  I really give you an atta boy for doing this, but no more comparisons for me.  I know what shows I enjoy.  I'm not concerned about differences you mentioned, or if the mm are picking their noses while playing, or doing the funky chicken.  If a corps is entertaining, D&BC life is good.  Only problem currently is that there are fewer entertaining shows.

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19 minutes ago, Ghost said:

With your first comparison of SI & the BD, you mentioned from the beginning about difficulty of music, drill, and whether they were being done at the same time.  With the Cavies comparison, the 92 show was around three minutes completed before you said anything about the show.  Too much discussion about Brubaker.  With the 06 show, it was the way you said "no music"  and hand motions that made me end the video.  Maybe if you had mentioned somewhere in the first comparison what your personal likes/dislikes are, I'd understand your comments.  Then again, it's probably better we didn't know.  I really give you an atta boy for doing this, but no more comparisons for me.  I know what shows I enjoy.  I'm not concerned about differences you mentioned, or if the mm are picking their noses while playing, or doing the funky chicken.  If a corps is entertaining, D&BC life is good.  Only problem currently is that there are fewer entertaining shows.

I mentioned in each successive comparison that I wasn't going to repeat most of the observations that I had made previously.  My feeling on these shows (all of them) is that they are great, worthy programs.  A major point that I am making all the while is that the design choices concerning difficulty are universal and timeless.  When I say "they're not moving" or "they're not playing" it's a demonstration that every corps in every era operated on the same design accommodations when it comes to the content involved in playing and moving.

I fear that you are presuming that I have some sort of bias in favor of a time period... but I don't.  I have no 'dog' in the fight.  My interest is in providing an apologetic for drumcorps difficulty and proficiency at large and to redirect what I believe to be the real source of disagreement towards a conversation on aesthetics.

I do take the time to offer some of my opinions on why I think fans relate better or worse to varying show aesthetics... but if you are watching and listening with suspicion on my motives... it will be easy to miss what I am saying and why.

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11 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

1.  or "they're not playing" it's a demonstration that every corps in every era operated on the same design accommodations when it comes to the content involved in playing and moving.

2.   but if you are watching and listening with suspicion on my motives... it will be easy to miss what I am saying and why.

1.  It was how you spoke the words "no playing" at 23:25 during the 06 Cavies.  It was like you're telling any viewer "see, they're not playing" and "just a lot of visuals, hand motions" as if it's a bad thing.  Inflection of speech can sometimes tell a lot about what the speaker is feeling and that's how I heard it.

2.  I felt you were talking to much about your views on drill, music, etc. and not discussing your thoughts on what the corps was doing.

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1 hour ago, Ghost said:

1.  It was how you spoke the words "no playing" at 23:25 during the 06 Cavies.  It was like you're telling any viewer "see, they're not playing" and "just a lot of visuals, hand motions" as if it's a bad thing.  Inflection of speech can sometimes tell a lot about what the speaker is feeling and that's how I heard it.

2.  I felt you were talking to much about your views on drill, music, etc. and not discussing your thoughts on what the corps was doing.

In the context of the exercise, I have NOT indicated any of that as being a bad thing.  You would have to isolate the comment to come to that assumption.  I am criticizing the complaint that 'ceased playing' and 'body movement' is a current method for decreasing difficulty.  I am pointing out that drumcorps design has used these visual devices for decades and it can be seen in that moment in that show.

To the second concern... this exercise IS about views on drill and music.  You have to watch the other commentaries to see that clearly.  I am not providing a review of the aesthetics (although I talk briefly about some of the potential forces that effect fans in different time periods).

Did you not watch the whole video or did you turn it off without finishing?  Had you seen the 2 preceding commentaries?

I have been glowing with every one of these shows.  But I have been focused on the technical aspects in an effort to divorce them from the aesthetics that I really think drive the fan reaction.

Edited by cfirwin3
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8 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

In the context of the exercise, I have NOT indicated any of that as being a bad thing.  You would have to isolate the comment to come to that assumption.  I am criticizing the complaint that 'ceased playing' and 'body movement' is a current method for decreasing difficulty.  I am pointing out that drumcorps design has used these visual devices for decades and it can be seen in that moment in that show.

Umm, cleaning body movement to an extent is much harder than cleaning drill. Not everyone's body can move as fluidly as the other. I would much rather clean drill all day, every day than run the same body movement over and over and over and never really getting anywhere because some people just don't know how to move their body. Rhythm is not something everyone has...

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Just now, Incognito365 said:

Umm, cleaning body movement to an extent is much harder than cleaning drill. Not everyone's body can move as fluidly as the other. I would much rather clean drill all day, every day than run the same body movement over and over and over and never really getting anywhere because some people just don't know how to move their body. Rhythm is not something everyone has...

Many of the critics of contemporary design don't see that.

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Just now, cfirwin3 said:

Many of the critics of contemporary design don't see that.

I'm speaking from personal experience as a visual tech for high school, but I'm sure my point of view would carry over to corps if I ever received the opportunity. I hate cleaning body work. It's absolutely tedious. I like body work, don't get me wrong, but the amount of it these days is a bit much. 

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3 hours ago, Ghost said:

Only problem currently is that there are fewer entertaining shows.

This really hits the nail on the head for me. I’ve been thinking about this thread so much throughout the day. For me, it’s not really the visuals I take such an issue with. It’s the lack of musicality. It’s the stand still play insane runs - scatter set/body movement to percussion - stand still play insane runs to percussion - stand still insane runs....repeat over and over and over. I don’t know. I have been bored to death 2014-2016, then I really enjoyed 2017 and 2018, and now I find 2019 the most boring season since my first season (‘84). 

The main problem I have, on the visual side, is with the props. The thing I love about Crown this year is the same thing I love about the Blue Stars. IMO these two play the most difficult music, continuously, while marching challenging drill. They I outright laugh at the Blue Stars with that ridiculous prop and the members sliding down slides. Really? This is the best you can do? Do you really think audience members are thinking “wow” when they slide down the slides. Then, there’s Vanguard with the ladders just so people can climb up them and doing nothing. Then there’s Crown’s props, which I just don’t understand their purpose other than framing. Regiment’s props are ugly, stationary and pointless. BAC doesn’t do anything interesting with theirs either. It’s like “Oh, wow, some horn players are up on pegs, that’s so cool.” Not. Bluecoats are a big old mess. It’s gotten so out of hand. The most successful props were Bluecoats 2016, Vanguard 2018 and Devils 2019. 

So...yeah, I’m bored to death by everyone but Crown and Devils, essentially.

Edited by queenanne_1536

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Until a corps comes out playing while riding peddle carts a la Broken Arrow, I won't be impressed with the prop work anymore. To me, whether it was dirty or not, Broken ArroW did a fantastic job with that. Also, a company front with the carts?! YES PLEASE!!!

Edited by Incognito365

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