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the gooy goo thread


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We talked about this recently on another thread and I think that the topic deserves it's own spotlight.

The goal is to talk about this for what it actually is and not for what it is accused to be.  But as with most Internet chat "goals", I give this the chance of a breaking wind in a hurricane.  Let's see how it goes.

So, let's talk about the infamous "Goo".  This discussion is NOT about electronics in general, mic reinforcement, samples, or any other electronic effects.  This is just GOO.

To the best of my understanding (which may not be much by the measure of some of you), "Goo" is merely the application of a basic synthesized wave form (usually a single sine wave) on the octave below the bass note of particular chordal arrivals and passages.  This is a preexisting practice in the recording and mixing industry that is frequently applied to film music, commercial symphonic recordings, and even live events (you would be surprised at some of the fancy tricks that your local symphony orchestra is pulling at those live 4th of July fireworks spectaculars).  It can be applied via an additional oscillator or it CAN be produced with an effects chain tied to the target instrumentation (the basses).  The purpose of the sub bass addition is purely musical and experiential.  The goal is to have the spectators FEEL some of the musical moments more intimately rather than just hear them.  It is supposed to make mixes sound (feel) big, lush and LARGER than life.  It is NOT used to compensate for a lack of ability or act as any other such remediation.

This is what (I believe) the groups are after today and I have described the source of the experimentation.

So the first question is: Should they bother doing this?

Let's just say that some will say yes and some will say no and the reasons are generally wrapped up in tradition ("it aint broke, don't fix it")  v. innovation ("we aren't fixing anything... we are just trying to give the audience an experience that they can feel in a different way").

So let's just leave that question be for now.

The question that I have is: Are they mixing this stuff (sub bass "Goo" only) in a way that reflects it's purpose in other preexisting uses?

It seems to me that the answer is: Well, it depends on where you are sitting.

 

Here is my opinion (that you probably couldn't care less about hearing)...

If I were a sound designer for one of these groups, I would park my amps, sit in each front section set of seats that are in direct line of each amp, and I would mix the sub bass such that I BARELY notice that it is there.  This is how it is done in the commercial recording industry.  I would treat the amps as bell front instruments that are subordinate to all others.  What makes this situation different is that every seat (and the Flo microphone array... for those of you yelling at your TV's, computers and cell phones) captures the amp output differently, just like any other bell front instrument on the field.  So I would pull it all way down to the lowest impact on the most direct line of site (rather than mixing it for the 'median' stadium seating or the press box).  Alternatively, I might experiment with some wireless backfield amps that can be jacked up more to add indirect ambiance.  The theory here is that it is supposed to be a supportive, additive, experiential effect.  If it is only positively additive in most places and distracting in others, then it does worse than add to the experience.  On the other hand, if it is additive to SOME places and barely noticed (if at all) in others, then it is a "win" all around.

On the other hand, some of the stuff that is attributed to "Goo" is actually straight up synthesized sound that serves as a separate voice part to the wind and percussion ensemble.  That stuff should be every bit as obvious to the listeners as the designers conceived it to be.  It's a fine line to debate.

Alright... Fight!

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Just now, Jeff Ream said:

the problem with sitting in the seats you describe is that everything is aimed at the box, which varies show to show except for the last 2/3 shows of the year. Every stadium is different. I don't mind that they use it, but the balance issue is annoying, and I have sat by many boxes where the balance sucks, and you see nothing reflected on the recap. 

 

( ok i will confess...over usage of bass drops gets ####### old fast). 

Until the judging community is willing to let someone have it for performance long balance issues, nothing will change. Now, what I see/hear at home on Flo means nothing, cause their mics are usually at field level right by the amps ( how they haven't figured out a workaround to this amazes me), so if it's bad one, so be it. But there was one year Crown's goo was so bad at Allentown at times i had to fight to hear the corps, and they popped high 9's on the upstairs music sheets. Sorry, but BS!

Live by the plug, die by the plug. But the judging community refuses to pull that trigger.

 

That's why I would push for the front line of sight section maximum balance approach.  The problem is that this is a risk that would have to be tested on the judges (if it even really matters that much to them... and that is a puzzle in itself as you sort of point out).

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Bass Goo is just like electronic amplification, added effects, and every other change that has happened to drum corps in the past 20 years: there are some corps that are really good at implementing it and blending it into the show, and there are some corps that absolutely suck eggs at it and make it a noisy mess of a distraction. When balanced right, I hear that added bass boost on some power chords on DCI recordings and it sounds just divine. But other corps have made it a syrupy mess that overwhelms the brass sound being put out by the performers.

I do have to agree with Jeff: when it goes wrong, I'm not seeing the caption hits I would expect. An unbalanced electric setup should (at the very least) reflect negatively on the music analysis and general effect sheets. I can't say I've ever noticed much recap numbers movement between good goo and bad goo, though.

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35 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

 Until the judging community is willing to let someone have it for performance long balance issues, nothing will change.   But there was one year Crown's goo was so bad at Allentown at times i had to fight to hear the corps, and they popped high 9's on the upstairs music sheets. Sorry, but BS!   Live by the plug, die by the plug. But the judging community refuses to pull that trigger.

 

29 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

  The problem is that this is a risk that would have to be tested on the judges (if it even really matters that much to them... and that is a puzzle in itself as you sort of point out).

 

7 minutes ago, hostrauser said:

 When balanced right, I hear that added bass boost on some power chords on DCI recordings and it sounds just divine. But other corps have made it a syrupy mess that overwhelms the brass sound being put out by the performers.

I do have to agree with Jeff: when it goes wrong, I'm not seeing the caption hits I would expect. An unbalanced electric setup should (at the very least) reflect negatively on the music analysis and general effect sheets. I can't say I've ever noticed much recap numbers movement between good goo and bad goo, though.

Do away with the electronics and let the music come through naturally.  Take the judges right out of the equation since very few are judging it properly.

But, we all know this will not happen.

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Just now, Ghost said:

 

 

Do away with the electronics and let the music come through naturally.  Take the judges right out of the equation since very few are judging it properly.

But, we all know this will not happen.

I don't believe that all of the innovation is a direct result of adjudication, or vice versa.

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I’ve finally come to grips with all the “bells and whistles” that exist today. I’m good with it all. So long as audiences stand and cheer I’m happy. So, how can this old dino manage this?

I no longer enjoy DCI as simply `drum corps.` That’s what I was doing years ago. I was then, but this is now.  Today, I enjoy a Music Spectacle. An ever-changing, always fresh,  mix of sight and sound. 

An admitted perfectionist, I’m always just looking for EXCELLENCE. Superior performance from everyone and everything. I’m the guy you catch adjusting a wall hanging at your place. DCI is perfect for a guy like me. No matter what’s going on out there on the field of competition.  . . today’s performers and staff share the same goals I value. We are one.

Bring it on !

 

 

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1 hour ago, cfirwin3 said:

That's why I would push for the front line of sight section maximum balance approach.  The problem is that this is a risk that would have to be tested on the judges (if it even really matters that much to them... and that is a puzzle in itself as you sort of point out).

here is the truly amazing thing...corps get a 17 minute window. why do so few if any actually do a sound check? Is there that much #### to plug in and boot up you can't test quick?

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1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:

the problem with sitting in the seats you describe is that everything is aimed at the box, which varies show to show except for the last 2/3 shows of the year. Every stadium is different. I don't mind that they use it, but the balance issue is annoying, and I have sat by many boxes where the balance sucks, and you see nothing reflected on the recap. 

 

( ok i will confess...over usage of bass drops gets ####### old fast). 

Until the judging community is willing to let someone have it for performance long balance issues, nothing will change. Now, what I see/hear at home on Flo means nothing, cause their mics are usually at field level right by the amps ( how they haven't figured out a workaround to this amazes me), so if it's bad one, so be it. But there was one year Crown's goo was so bad at Allentown at times i had to fight to hear the corps, and they popped high 9's on the upstairs music sheets. Sorry, but BS!

Live by the plug, die by the plug. But the judging community refuses to pull that trigger.

 

Or the instructor/director community refuses to allow the judges the latitude to do so on the sheets....

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46 minutes ago, hostrauser said:

Bass Goo is just like electronic amplification, added effects, and every other change that has happened to drum corps in the past 20 years: there are some corps that are really good at implementing it and blending it into the show, and there are some corps that absolutely suck eggs at it and make it a noisy mess of a distraction. When balanced right, I hear that added bass boost on some power chords on DCI recordings and it sounds just divine. But other corps have made it a syrupy mess that overwhelms the brass sound being put out by the performers.

I do have to agree with Jeff: when it goes wrong, I'm not seeing the caption hits I would expect. An unbalanced electric setup should (at the very least) reflect negatively on the music analysis and general effect sheets. I can't say I've ever noticed much recap numbers movement between good goo and bad goo, though.

one time I remember seeing it....Allentown 08. Bloo had some hot mics on the metals up front and it was painful. When perc 2 was around, he had a much lower score than the field guy. But then again, as history has proven, drum guys have the balls to make calls

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