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the gooy goo thread


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35 minutes ago, Ghost said:

 

 

Do away with the electronics and let the music come through naturally.  Take the judges right out of the equation since very few are judging it properly.

But, we all know this will not happen.

horse is out of the barn. you aint getting it back in

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2 minutes ago, Algernon said:

Or the instructor/director community refuses to allow the judges the latitude to do so on the sheets....

judges can revolt in subtle ways. it's happened before.

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43 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

here is the truly amazing thing...corps get a 17 minute window. why do so few if any actually do a sound check? Is there that much #### to plug in and boot up you can't test quick?

I always assumed that's what Bluecoats are doing with that "number 9" business -- show-themed sound check.

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Last night in Winston-Salem Bluecoats Goo was almost unbearable through the end of Elenor Rigby.  Amazing show, but that lessened my enjoyment.

Then Crown came on and the ballad was so nice and clear. Not loud but natural.  I was in Bliss.

Edited by cadet93
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2 hours ago, cadet93 said:

Last night in Winston-Salem Bluecoats Goo was almost unbearable through the end of Elenor Rigby.  Amazing show, but that lessened my enjoyment.

Then Crown came on and the ballad was so nice and clear. Not loud but natural.  I was in Bliss.

And that may have been different from what a person 10 seats down from you heard.

So what do you balance to?  The median of the seats, or the most direct line of perception?

I think they should be mixing that stuff to be barely noticed from the most direct seat... personally.

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19 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

And that may have been different from what a person 10 seats down from you heard.

So what do you balance to?  The median of the seats, or the most direct line of perception?

I think they should be mixing that stuff to be barely noticed from the most direct seat... personally.

FWIW, I was on the 50 3/4 up the stadium ideal location and equivalent to where Judges would be.

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4 hours ago, Precious Roy said:

I always assumed that's what Bluecoats are doing with that "number 9" business -- show-themed sound check.

well, yes, but also ties into the theme if you know the White Album

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1 hour ago, cfirwin3 said:

And that may have been different from what a person 10 seats down from you heard.

So what do you balance to?  The median of the seats, or the most direct line of perception?

I think they should be mixing that stuff to be barely noticed from the most direct seat... personally.

a corps that wants to score well will aim for the box every time. thats who matters

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7 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

a corps that wants to score well will aim for the box every time. thats who matters

You would think. But as you note, the judges don't seem to give a rip about the balance (they aren't adjusting scores for it)... so why risk overkill for the audience?

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16 hours ago, cfirwin3 said:

We talked about this recently on another thread and I think that the topic deserves it's own spotlight.

The goal is to talk about this for what it actually is and not for what it is accused to be.  But as with most Internet chat "goals", I give this the chance of a breaking wind in a hurricane.  Let's see how it goes.

So, let's talk about the infamous "Goo".  This discussion is NOT about electronics in general, mic reinforcement, samples, or any other electronic effects.  This is just GOO.

To the best of my understanding (which may not be much by the measure of some of you), "Goo" is merely the application of a basic synthesized wave form (usually a single sine wave) on the octave below the bass note of particular chordal arrivals and passages.  This is a preexisting practice in the recording and mixing industry that is frequently applied to film music, commercial symphonic recordings, and even live events (you would be surprised at some of the fancy tricks that your local symphony orchestra is pulling at those live 4th of July fireworks spectaculars).  It can be applied via an additional oscillator or it CAN be produced with an effects chain tied to the target instrumentation (the basses).  The purpose of the sub bass addition is purely musical and experiential.  The goal is to have the spectators FEEL some of the musical moments more intimately rather than just hear them.  It is supposed to make mixes sound (feel) big, lush and LARGER than life.  It is NOT used to compensate for a lack of ability or act as any other such remediation.

This is what (I believe) the groups are after today and I have described the source of the experimentation.

So the first question is: Should they bother doing this?

Let's just say that some will say yes and some will say no and the reasons are generally wrapped up in tradition ("it aint broke, don't fix it")  v. innovation ("we aren't fixing anything... we are just trying to give the audience an experience that they can feel in a different way").

So let's just leave that question be for now.

The question that I have is: Are they mixing this stuff (sub bass "Goo" only) in a way that reflects it's purpose in other preexisting uses?

It seems to me that the answer is: Well, it depends on where you are sitting.

 

Here is my opinion (that you probably couldn't care less about hearing)...

If I were a sound designer for one of these groups, I would park my amps, sit in each front section set of seats that are in direct line of each amp, and I would mix the sub bass such that I BARELY notice that it is there.  This is how it is done in the commercial recording industry.  I would treat the amps as bell front instruments that are subordinate to all others.  What makes this situation different is that every seat (and the Flo microphone array... for those of you yelling at your TV's, computers and cell phones) captures the amp output differently, just like any other bell front instrument on the field.  So I would pull it all way down to the lowest impact on the most direct line of site (rather than mixing it for the 'median' stadium seating or the press box).  Alternatively, I might experiment with some wireless backfield amps that can be jacked up more to add indirect ambiance.  The theory here is that it is supposed to be a supportive, additive, experiential effect.  If it is only positively additive in most places and distracting in others, then it does worse than add to the experience.  On the other hand, if it is additive to SOME places and barely noticed (if at all) in others, then it is a "win" all around.

On the other hand, some of the stuff that is attributed to "Goo" is actually straight up synthesized sound that serves as a separate voice part to the wind and percussion ensemble.  That stuff should be every bit as obvious to the listeners as the designers conceived it to be.  It's a fine line to debate.

Alright... Fight!

Goo to me no matter how it is implemented is not musical. To explain almost every corps uses goo at the end of a opener, Show etc you get the idea. the bass goo note is played and it is constant and resembles the sound of feedback imo  more than anything else. There is no variation in its sound and in almost all cases it’s to loud...way to loud.  I guess they think it improves low brass tone color but it doesn’t imo. 

All I know is this, more often then not,  everything that is micd and coming through speakers is to loud and not balanced properly.

We are in Year 15 for amplification and year 10 for synths.  These so called “professionals” either have no control and just want more more more or they have the worst hearing and sense of what balance is. 

Do it right or don’t do it at all.  I want to hear the entire musical ensemble in balance!!  

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