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the gooy goo thread


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9 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

a corps that wants to score well will aim for the box every time. thats who matters

Yep.

Even in the Stone Age when I marched... I lost count of how many times I heard our staff say "Horns to the box, people!!!"

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16 hours ago, cfirwin3 said:

We talked about this recently on another thread and I think that the topic deserves it's own spotlight.

The goal is to talk about this for what it actually is and not for what it is accused to be.  But as with most Internet chat "goals", I give this the chance of a breaking wind in a hurricane.  Let's see how it goes.

So, let's talk about the infamous "Goo".  This discussion is NOT about electronics in general, mic reinforcement, samples, or any other electronic effects.  This is just GOO.

To the best of my understanding (which may not be much by the measure of some of you), "Goo" is merely the application of a basic synthesized wave form (usually a single sine wave) on the octave below the bass note of particular chordal arrivals and passages.  This is a preexisting practice in the recording and mixing industry that is frequently applied to film music, commercial symphonic recordings, and even live events (you would be surprised at some of the fancy tricks that your local symphony orchestra is pulling at those live 4th of July fireworks spectaculars).  It can be applied via an additional oscillator or it CAN be produced with an effects chain tied to the target instrumentation (the basses).  The purpose of the sub bass addition is purely musical and experiential.  The goal is to have the spectators FEEL some of the musical moments more intimately rather than just hear them.  It is supposed to make mixes sound (feel) big, lush and LARGER than life.  It is NOT used to compensate for a lack of ability or act as any other such remediation.

This is what (I believe) the groups are after today and I have described the source of the experimentation.

So the first question is: Should they bother doing this?

Let's just say that some will say yes and some will say no and the reasons are generally wrapped up in tradition ("it aint broke, don't fix it")  v. innovation ("we aren't fixing anything... we are just trying to give the audience an experience that they can feel in a different way").

So let's just leave that question be for now.

The question that I have is: Are they mixing this stuff (sub bass "Goo" only) in a way that reflects it's purpose in other preexisting uses?

It seems to me that the answer is: Well, it depends on where you are sitting.

 

Here is my opinion (that you probably couldn't care less about hearing)...

If I were a sound designer for one of these groups, I would park my amps, sit in each front section set of seats that are in direct line of each amp, and I would mix the sub bass such that I BARELY notice that it is there.  This is how it is done in the commercial recording industry.  I would treat the amps as bell front instruments that are subordinate to all others.  What makes this situation different is that every seat (and the Flo microphone array... for those of you yelling at your TV's, computers and cell phones) captures the amp output differently, just like any other bell front instrument on the field.  So I would pull it all way down to the lowest impact on the most direct line of site (rather than mixing it for the 'median' stadium seating or the press box).  Alternatively, I might experiment with some wireless backfield amps that can be jacked up more to add indirect ambiance.  The theory here is that it is supposed to be a supportive, additive, experiential effect.  If it is only positively additive in most places and distracting in others, then it does worse than add to the experience.  On the other hand, if it is additive to SOME places and barely noticed (if at all) in others, then it is a "win" all around.

On the other hand, some of the stuff that is attributed to "Goo" is actually straight up synthesized sound that serves as a separate voice part to the wind and percussion ensemble.  That stuff should be every bit as obvious to the listeners as the designers conceived it to be.  It's a fine line to debate.

Alright... Fight!

I have no problem with the application of a bass note one octave lower than the bass note of the bass line, as long as it is not very noticeable, just sort of felt.  The problem is that the speakers themselves are not capable of reproducing those notes loudly and therefore start to distort (mostly doubling) and really muddy the sound and then that becomes very disturbing.  Use of the synth as a separate instrument and not re-inforcement is a problem for me.

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3 hours ago, cfirwin3 said:

You would think. But as you note, the judges don't seem to give a rip about the balance (they aren't adjusting scores for it)... so why risk overkill for the audience?

artistic license.....ego.....whatever you want to call it

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12 hours ago, cfirwin3 said:

And that may have been different from what a person 10 seats down from you heard.

So what do you balance to?  The median of the seats, or the most direct line of perception?

I think they should be mixing that stuff to be barely noticed from the most direct seat... personally.

Do you see line-array speakers as a partial solution? (Could be costly for many corps, I would imagine).

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Thank you all for this discussion. I may have been the impetus for the OP, as I asked a few weeks ago what exactly "goo" was.  After reading this thread I feel totally legit check "goo" off my DCI lingo-bingo card now. 

As a person with very sensitive hearing and a musical background, I very much agree with complaints around bad balance, in both dimensions (spatial and volume). I'm surprised that issues of "balance" wouldn't be judged under GE. I mean, if half of the guard flags were tattered or faded (regardless of how well they were thrown/caught/twirled) that would knock some points off GE, wouldn't it? Why isn't/can't overall sonic balance be a rubric item?

(Then again, when I read the verbiage around the captions, I'm usually left scratching my head. Maybe this _is_ in there somewhere.)

 

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18 hours ago, cfirwin3 said:

This is what (I believe) the groups are after today and I have described the source of the experimentation.

Ten years of experimentation?

FYI, the first complaints on DCP, I believe, were about the big hits in SCV's "Ballet for Martha" -- although one member who had just aged out insisted repeatedly that the synth wasn't used there (while other posters here said that someone on SCV staff had acknowledged it and apologized for it somewhere).  But the term "thunderous goo" wasn't coined here until the following year.

Just noting the historical perspective.

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8 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:

Ten years of experimentation?

FYI, the first complaints on DCP, I believe, were about the big hits in SCV's "Ballet for Martha" -- although one member who had just aged out insisted repeatedly that the synth wasn't used there (while other posters here said that someone on SCV staff had acknowledged it and apologized for it somewhere).  But the term "thunderous goo" wasn't coined here until the following year.

Just noting the historical perspective.

The source of the experimentation (which never ends) is from commercial recording mixing and mastering.  That's what I explained.

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The emergence of electronic enhancements is probably not an issue for most of us. However, it’s long overdue for better application and control. For recent years it seems the “goo” is used more as a volume booster than just a subtle color addition.  I like loud brass, just not fake loud brass.

Electronics has become an ‘arms race’ as many have stated. There should be a limit of some sort, just as we limit the front sideline. Cross that ‘line’ and get penalized.  Force a level of restraint upon every corps.  I’m neither a musician, nor an audio engineer. So, I can’t propose  how to fix this, but will ask . . .

Could YOU be that judge who hits a Blue Devils, a Bluecoats, a Santa Clara Vanguard with a defined deduction of points for crossing a line such as this one? A boundary that, so far, hasn’t clearly been delineated.  

 

 

Edited by Fred Windish
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Back around 2010 or 2011, DCI passed a rule that allowed the sound mixer (or an assistant on headset) to sit in the stands in order to get a better sound in the stands. In live theater, where I work, the sound mixer is frequently located in the house with the audience, so he hears what they hear.

I often splurge for the better seats at drum corps shows -- high and center near the press box -- in order to hear less of the amps. (Prior to this decade, you didn't used to have to do that: you got a pretty good balanced sound over a wide range of seating locations.) So I'm generally in a position to see if the corps have someone remotely mixing the show or at least on headset confirming how the mix sounds to the mixer down below.

I have seen both things happen from time to time, but in my experience, they're generally not bothering. The sound mixer is down on the track, and has no idea what the show sounds like above.

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14 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

The source of the experimentation (which never ends) is from commercial recording mixing and mastering.  That's what I explained.

No I get that, I was just quibbling about the idea that they're still experimenting. They've tried it. It sounds bad to a lot of people. They either don't know or don't care. I mean, is there a drum corps sound designer who really thinks, "This time, I'm sure they'll like it!"?

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