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6 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

I'll tell you what... if I was mic'ing all of my tubas... I would process it to generate my sub-bass "goo" signal more organically than adding a synth sine.

But that's just what I would do.  And perhaps that's where some of this discussion overlaps.  It's all about what they are doing with the signal... it may not be what people automatically assume.

I work with live processed electronics daily, and I'm not happy with most pitch shifting options when it comes to dropping the signal an octave (or two). Besides the latency issue, it just lacks the punch that a good synthesized sub has. At that frequency though, (20-60hz) you're really just looking for the feel anyways. I don't use much synthesis in my work, but I make an exception in this case. 

Edited by MarimbaManiac
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52 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said:

I work with live processed electronics daily, and I'm not happy with most pitch shifting options when it comes to dropping the signal an octave (or two). Besides the latency issue, it just lacks the punch that a good synthesized sub has. At that frequency though, (20-60hz) you're really just looking for the feel anyways. 

I don’t believe the issue is pitch shifting or volume  ... it is equalization and balance. Best over the very good.

Edited by Jurassic Lancer
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1 minute ago, MarimbaManiac said:

I work with live processed electronics daily, and I'm not happy with most pitch shifting options when it comes to dropping the signal an octave (or two). Besides the latency issue, it just lacks the punch that a good synthesized sub has. At that frequency though, (20-60hz) you're really just looking for the feel anyways. 

I would experiment with it on that very premise.  The latency isn't much of an issue because I think most of these sub basses are using slow envelopes on the attack anyway.  You just need a straight simple wave form to make things rumble a bit... put a little rattle in a bleachers.

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3 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

I would experiment with it on that very premise.  The latency isn't much of an issue because I think most of these sub basses are using slow envelopes on the attack anyway.  You just need a straight simple wave form to make things rumble a bit... put a little rattle in a bleachers.

Yeah, I'd still use synthesis. Maybe just record the tubas and analyze/resynthesize based on the recorded waveform and resonating harmonics. Splitting hairs though either way 

Edited by MarimbaManiac
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2 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

I would experiment with it on that very premise.  The latency isn't much of an issue because I think most of these sub basses are using slow envelopes on the attack anyway.  You just need a straight simple wave form to make things rumble a bit... put a little rattle in a bleachers.

The thunderous goo diatribe. Nope, we are talking deeper equalization, IMO.

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7 hours ago, xandandl said:

What Eleran said plus the reason the Denver regional contest was nixed but for home Blue Knights. Both field conditions, some weather conditions, but stadium staff objecting to size and movement of props.  It will have to be addressed further in the off season DCI meetings. WGI already addressed insurance and size issues. Now DCI has more complexities.

the issue with props is on natural grass stadiums by and large

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2 hours ago, cfirwin3 said:

1. It has nothing to do with the corps that I marched.  You don't really have to take my word for it, because I think that this thread was started with a different drumcorps in mind... and I am eager to jump to THEIR defense... mostly because symphony orchestras and wind bands have been employing these techniques for outdoor venues for decades, because it makes sense.  I promise you that if you catch the Boston Symphony at the shell on the Charles River... you are going to hear an audio engineered performance.

2. The financial disparity issue is not furthered by the addition or subtraction of any sort of equipment.  More funds will be used to buy more stuff in the interest of creativity no matter what is or is not allowed.  The argument is a red herring (that is mostly irrelevant these days with most world class corps using electronics on a fairly comparable level).

3a. A drum major is a metronome.  A drum major is the BEST metronome.  Using a click is really settling for inadequacy when the drum major isn't in view... or when you would otherwise need 5 drum majors to get the job done.

3b. Autotune... don't make me laugh.  THIS is the assertion of the thread, that electronics make it all easier.  And that is what I was getting at with my post.  It's a nonsense assertion because it has no example to base it on.  You can't take a hornline playing at full dynamic, capture, filter, and amplify in a way that actually deceives the audience.  The ensemble is right there to be heard (and they are heard)... not in some glass partition.

3c. Competition and rules is really what this comes down to.  People are obsessed with regulation when points are involved.  But the laughable thing is that we are talking about techniques that are allowed as if they aren't.  And when you examine the reasons why they are allowed, then you quickly understand that they are not allowed for the benefit of technical point value, but rather for the benefit music production.

Anybody who has done this knows that balance, blend and tuning in drumcorps is ENTIRELY a mechanical enterprise.  You don't "listen" for balance and blend.  You don't adjust to your neighbors.  You don't tune to your 'trio'... or to the tuba section.  You repeat the phrase hundreds of times in a controlled environment with constant critique.  You put your tuning slides at the notch markings that you are told.  You learn to play in the 'center' of the horn.  You develop the kind of muscle memory that would... let's say you dropped dead in the middle of the show... your dead corpse would finish the show before it gave in to rigor mortis, or turned to jelly.  These things are conditioned, not negotiated.

Electronics change none of that.  You can't make something that is entirely mechanical and make it more mechanical.  There is an assumption that brass sections sound better by using electronics... and that is nonsense.  Brass sections sound better by being better.  They sound better by having people that are picky making the decisions.  They sound better by having students that are able and willing to do what picky people tell them to do... and getting it done yesterday.

Ironically, electronics (amplification specifically) as it is being used actually puts a whole lot more weight on the performer.  Now that soloists are amplified, they are expected to be musical.  They are expected to convey interpretation.  They are depending on far less mechanical conditioning and far more on playing the horn with nuance that is amplified for everyone to hear.  It's gotten to the point where FLO-watching home judges are quickly saying things like "ooo, that was a rough run" because they heard the sleight crunching sound of attack in the soloist.

Amplification doesn't make a corps sound better... it helps to show off just how good (or rough) they are.

Think about it.  When people have to do public speaking... and they approach the microphone... do they feel better or worse about their situation?

 

I stand by my analogy 100%

bravo.

 

and for all of the hand wringing....you actually think DCI is going to read DCP and change a rule because of it?

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1 hour ago, Glenn426 said:

And as I said Kudos to Bluecoats for having the vision in 2016 that this was the next frontier for DCI and doing everything they could to get a hold of this area and understand it, But they currently hold a significant advantage over the other corps.. Outside of SCV and Crown which are coincidentally 1, 2 & 3 in the music captions as of late, the other corps do not have an equal understanding/investment of said electronics..

I remember posting in the predictions thread that if Bluecoats were going to win this year they would have to find a new way to innovate.... Outside of the Visual Medium because their props this year where not up to par with the GE advantage that the ramps in Down Side Up gave them...

Low and behold they have innovated and are clearly out in front of everyone enjoying this technological advantage while playing some amazing music (which is the genius stroke)

and they have so mastered it they won in 16...and how did 17 and 18 turn out?

 

Oh wait, you mean this automatically didn't make them Blue gods, destroying the rest of DCI with this horribly unfair advantage?

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