What would you think if...

[N.E. Brigand]

2 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

then go to the lot to hear it. they aren't changing the rules backwards.

What if the changes that have been made are in fact backwards?

[MarimbaManiac]

3 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:

I mean, the music general effect judge and/or music ensemble/analysis judge for all of DCI history has been located more than ten rows back from the field, right? And that history includes a front ensemble since about 1980. Are we supposed to think that those judges were always giving corps a pass on the fact that they couldn't hear the pit?

No, because they could in fact hear the pit.

Sorry, but no. 

Being able to hear the xylophone/crotales and cymbals/gongs is not "hearing the front ensemble." Even back then the keyboards were doing layered complex things that weren't audible unless the hornline laid out, or it was a thin texture. Amplification brought the front ensemble into the mix and allowed the section to develop and shine. 

 

[Jeff Ream]

12 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Some might not wait for those changes.

that threat has been being made for decades.

[garfield]

2 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:

I mean, the music general effect judge and/or music ensemble/analysis judge for all of DCI history has been located more than ten rows back from the field, right? And that history includes a front ensemble since about 1980. Are we supposed to think that those judges were always giving corps a pass on the fact that they couldn't hear the pit?

No, because they could in fact hear the pit.

And to add, I think the claim is that the technique used to hear the pit back then was destructive to hands and playing quality.  Yet, compare two pits from before and after amps and the change is technique in almost all except the pp portions is largely the same.  But, of course, six marimbas all playing pp is not quite pp now, is it?

It's the banging the amp-proponents object to; I contend there's just as much banging on the keys today as then.

There's a lot more emoting though!

[cfirwin3]

Just now, Jeff Ream said:

i do still feel in many cases, the judges are too soft on issues created by the electronics.

Yeah we have been down that road.  I certainly can't disagree with that... But it seems to me that occasional mishaps with electronics are not much different than what can happen in the drill or in a solo.  Judges tend not to get too riled up over occasional mishaps of any sort (like when a few members trip and fall).  They are more interested in the systemic issues.

[MarimbaManiac]

2 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:

And I agree they're pretty good at it, but they still have lots of room to grow, as was clear from the way they sounded at Centerville. BD too. It's not so much that either one usually had too much synth-bass --a regular complaint of mine and definitely a problem for some of the other corps at that show-- but that the overall sound design in that venue was mud.

Like listening to the corps through an aquarium.

I'm not familiar with the Centerville venue, but it's possible they just didn't have a scene set for that venues characteristics. 

We need to remember that usually a sound team will have hours in a venue to tune a system, while these people are doing it based on theoretical information about the venue, and then adjusting on the fly.

[MarimbaManiac]

1 minute ago, garfield said:

And to add, I think the claim is that the technique used to hear the pit back then was destructive to hands and playing quality.  Yet, compare two pits from before and after amps and the change is technique in almost all except the pp portions is largely the same.  But, of course, six marimbas all playing pp is not quite pp now, is it?

It's the banging the amp-proponents object to; I contend there's just as much banging on the keys today as then.

There's a lot more emoting though!

The technique, is in no way the same. 

As someone who played in a front ensemble in the 90s and 2000s pre amps, and taught in the 2010s post amps, and as a human who has eyes and ears, I can say without a doubt that the technique is completely different. 

[Glenn426]

1 minute ago, N.E. Brigand said:

And I agree they're pretty good at it, but they still have lots of room to grow, as was clear from the way they sounded at Centerville. BD too. It's not so much that either one usually had too much synth-bass --a regular complaint of mine and definitely a problem for some of the other corps at that show-- but that the overall sound design in that venue was mud.

Like listening to the corps through an aquarium.

It had been a couple of years since the last Centerville Show right? Centerville used to be a yearly stop for many corps last decade but it seems like they are not as common in recent years..  I would imagine they took a chance on the sound for that venue but in your ears they could have done better.. They probably agreed and took notes for next time.. 

When I spoke to them, they said they make have generic soundscapes by the size of the venue, If they have no info and haven't had a chance to fine tune for that venue they go Generic for the run to be safe and then take notes for the next time they are there.. 

[StuStu]

I didn't have the time to slog through the whole thread here, but I am interested to see just what audio signals are bouncing around LOS.

I have a scanner I use to listen to IndyCar drivers at the track.  I may bring that along tomorrow and check out what kind of signals I can pick up

[N.E. Brigand]

Just now, MarimbaManiac said:

Sorry, but no. 

Being able to hear the xylophone/crotales and cymbals/gongs is not "hearing the front ensemble." Even back then the keyboards were doing layered complex things that weren't audible unless the hornline laid out, or it was a thin texture. Amplification brought the front ensemble into the mix and allowed the section to develop and shine.

Ah, so when you said you *couldn't* hear the pit more than ten rows back, you meant that you *could* hear the pit, just not the way you wanted to. And I can appreciate that you feel that way.