What would you think if...

[One n Done]

13 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

ok, so how are amps and props helping say Spirit? Cadets? 

You prove my point, somewhat.  Ten years ago we began seeing and hearing the obvious amplification of full ensemble brass.  We still have groups that consider amplification’s purpose as primarily boosting the front ensemble and generation of sound effects.  The best, Bloo, uses amplification to enhance ALL voices in their ensemble as well as create staging possibilities that would be impossible otherwise.  I don’t believe that either group you mentioned has the money, audio staff, or philosophy of use that the top 3 have.

[Eleran]

6 minutes ago, ShortAndFast said:

They don't obnoxiously amplify Brünnhilde - she doesn't need it!

Or ANY opera at the MET (unless it's some modern thing with specific parts written for electronics).  Instead of citing the bio of their sound engineer for recordings, read an article discussing the very topic from 2013:

"the Met is and always will be an amplification-free zone, the company maintains, a place where opera can be experienced the traditional way - with natural sound"

[MarimbaManiac]

1 minute ago, Eleran said:

Or ANY opera at the MET (unless it's some modern thing with specific parts written for electronics).  Instead of citing the bio of their sound engineer for recordings, read an article discussing the very topic from 2013:

"the Met is and always will be an amplification-free zone, the company maintains, a place where opera can be experienced the traditional way - with natural sound"

Great...again. It depends on the venue, the rep, and the group. 

Though, the fact that they went out of their way to state that, should show you that it's more than likely the exception. Otherwise, what's the point of saying it?

[Eleran]

23 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said:

Great...again. It depends on the venue, the rep, and the group. 

Though, the fact that they went out of their way to state that, should show you that it's more than likely the exception. Otherwise, what's the point of saying it?

Again - try reading the article.  It was in response to someone noticing a mic on a singer, which they explained was for the broadcast, when due to blocking the singers are not always picked up by the stationary mics. 

[MarimbaManiac]

Again, you're ignoring everything that doesn't fit your narrative, while people who are actually involved with the production of instrumental music events are telling you that amplification and sound design are commonplace.

However you are sorta right on one point. Music in the Western Classical music canon, written between 1600-1900 (ish), performed by classically minded and conservative ensembles in multi-million dollar venues with meticulously designed acoustic treatment, usually tends to be performed without amplification. That is a very small sliver of the instrumental music community and represents a minority of the music that's being performed in professional and academic/university settings today. 

*edit* Actually, I can't even say that! - Really that just applies to orchestras and larger ensembles. Chamber music written during that period is more likely to be amplified depending on the space. 

 

To connect it back to the topic at hand...how many of the corps this year are playing Mozart? Brahms? Beethoven?

Edited August 8, 2019 by MarimbaManiac

[MarimbaManiac]

Somewhat relevant...Here is an article about Soundbox in San Francisco, which is a secondary venue for the San Francisco Symphony. They preform all types of music in this space, and the article discusses how they use amplification to change the acoustics of the room based on the needs of specific pieces. 

https://www.wired.com/2017/03/san-francisco-soundbox/

"The transformation is accomplished with 28 microphones and 85 loudspeakers installed throughout the room. "Those microphones capture the sound that's in the space, and then send it through the digital signal processing, back out through the speakers, and then recapture that sound again with the microphones," Parker says. "So in real time it's cycling the sound through the space, adding reflections as if the walls were further out, as if the ceiling were taller, and as if surface material were hard instead of soft and absorptive.""

Edited August 8, 2019 by MarimbaManiac

[Jeff Ream]

1 hour ago, MarimbaManiac said:

Yeesh, take a break to run a tech rehearsal and everything goes to pot. 

I'll make one more reply because some people are being a bit obtuse to defend their own biases, and frankly it's silly. 

 

Performing with acoustic instruments in a football stadium creates inherent problems. Even relatively louder instruments like drums and horns aren't able to deal with the environmental acoustic challenges that a variable open air venue creates. Are these problems perceptible? Yes, absolutely. However unless you have a lot of training, you might not be able to articulate exactly why the music doesn't sound quite right, or you might blame it on the performance itself. 

"Contras seemed really weak tonight" - Maybe the field covering is soaking up the low frequencies?

"The corps wasn't as loud as they were last week" - Maybe the stadium wasn't enclosed, or the stands were a scaffolding style and the sound passed right through them?

"I had a hard time hearing the middle horns" - Maybe the venue has a resonant frequency that covers up everything in that frequency range?

"Drums were WAY too loud today" - Maybe it's an all concrete venue and there are too many reflections?

 

These are all things that are inherent to the activity itself, and existed before A&E. While you can't do much to change the way sound reacts in the venue (though DCI tries, hence the big black curtain), you CAN use amplification to impact the sound you're putting out into the venue. Increase the middle horns in the mix to cut through the resonant frequencies, bring up the low end to combat what's being soaked up by the turf, etc. etc. 

 

Is all of this necessary? - well that's a judgement call on the part of the judges/designers. The use of tech to balance/EQ musical forces is ubiquitous in both live and recorded music today. The listening public is conditioned to hear music that's been mastered or balanced professionally, and have adverse reactions to performances or recordings that aren't (whether they are aware of the cause of their distaste, or not). So it's not a surprise that judges and designers have decided a quality sound design helps raise the clarity of intent, and are reflecting that in the GE music scores. It also probably impacts the Music scores in general because they judges can hear all of the elements of the mix at all times, and can get a better read. 

 

Is it always successful? - No, of course not. Some sound engineers are better at this than others. Some groups can afford more experienced techs, or better equipment, just like some can afford the Rennicks/Shaw/Gaines etc. while other corps can not. Besides ability, the fact that corps don't have a chance to soundcheck in the venue makes nailing the right mix very difficult, which is why the shows in LOS sound they best they do all season (from a sound design perspective), because it's a known entity, and the engineers more or less know what to expect there. This is why it's incredibly unfair for any group to be allowed to rehearse in a performance venue before the show, as they will have a leg up in this regard. 

 

Lastly, the concern that all of this technology is used as an "easy button" to replace the work of members is ridiculous. The members still have to play well (which they are doing at a higher level than at any point in the activity's history IMHO). They still have to be balanced, they still have to play with good tone quality, they still have to move and march and tune to the ensemble around them. The tech is simply adding another element to the mix that's addressing issues outside of the members control. It is filling a void that is impossible to do without technology, and when it's done right it results in a a far superior product from a sound quality perspective. 

 

That being said, you're free not to like it, but let's not conflate our own personal opinions and biases with the fact that technology can make positive additions to the overall presentation. 

 

 

i heart you

[Jeff Ream]

1 hour ago, Fred Windish said:

Millions of high school and college students dream of starring at a rock concert . . . . . as soon as they experience their first live, in-person, music spectacular. That whole experience. No longer do they aspire to join the American Legion or VFW. What's happening now is the lure.

All the latest bells and whistles, colors, sounds, attitude, attention and volume their body can handle. These are our present performers and our future. Engage them. Give them a shot to be that star! 

The Marching Arts  must feed this beast to remain healthy of performer and audience. As it all moves forward, it will become necessary to include even more 'wow'. Now, it's amplification and sound mixing on our mind.  But, spotlights, laser beams, full projections onto the field . . . whatever. . .  are soon to follow.  Artificial enhancements on an even bigger scale.  They must!

No one buys stale bread.

 

 

This. Kids respect the past, far more than they are often given credit for. That does not mean they want to do it the way it was done in the past

[Jeff Ream]

1 hour ago, Eleran said:

Not only is that a huge, sweeping generalization, it's one which I do not feel is correct.   Please remember that the VAST majority of DCI members all got their start in high school marching band.  DCI is just a natural progression.  And I don't think anyone here is going to say that they are joining their high school marching band because it is a "rock star" experience.   Playing in front of a bunch of parents, friends and alumni is not a rock-star audience.  Even at finals, the lower half of DCI gets a marginal crowd at best. Just because members continue to sign up does NOT mean they love all this crap that is being foisted on them by designers.

I can out you in touch with at least one member ...

and high school band has been allowing electronics way longer than DCI has

[E3D]