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1 minute ago, garfield said:

Oooohhhh, OK then!  My friend Jeff is judging MA tomorrow night and I thought I recall him saying he'd be on the field.  I may have that wrong.

I'm not suggesting one can't hear the horns.  I'm suggesting that one can't separate out the Goo from 4.000 watts of amps not matter where one is standing.

Nearly no one else in The Can would make a contention such as yours that the analog performance can be judged while NOT hearing the amped signals.

Unless, of course, such judge is wearing the same headphones as the person standing at the mixing board.

 

I think it sounds quite different when you're behind the speakers. When I've watched member-cam videos from recent years, I've been shocked at how different they sound from what we get in the audience. On the field, much of the amplified material seems either inaudible or very faint.

Obviously something like Bloo Kinetic Noise, where the speakers are moving around out on the field, would change that. But I don't see many (any?) groups going that way this year.

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25 minutes ago, garfield said:

You suspend logic.  Have you actually seen where they stand?  I have.  And there's a HUGE concrete wall reflecting all that Goo right to the back of the judge's head.  And, God forbid, he wants to move from side 1 to side 2 because he's not getting there "behind the stacks".

And what is the argument when speakers are actually ON the field blaring at the sidelines?  Does the MA judge have super-human hearing that can block that out and only judge the acoustics?

Come on now, I know you know that I speak truth to this.

 

 Come on now, its "Science" Brah! :lol::doh:

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15 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said:

It's just one example of an instrumental venue/organization that's using technology to enhance their space. And again, because you seem to be conflating the "electronic enhancement of acoustic music" with "electronic music." We're not even talking about electroacoustic or electronic music, which is a whole other can of worms. 

You're still grasping at straws to ignore what people who have direct experience with this are telling you, because you're convinced that we're somehow trying to pull the wool over your eyes about the prevalence of technology in the instrumental medium. 

Get a grip man, you seem a bit unhinged. 

At least they are not a "Maniac". :lol:

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29 minutes ago, garfield said:

 And, God forbid, he wants to move from side 1 to side 2 because he's not getting there "behind the stacks".

Just to this part: in the theater last night you could clearly see both brass & percussion judges tracking from side 1 to side 2 and back. They can go a couple of yards onto the field, so they didn't seem to have any trouble navigating to be in front of whatever they wanted to see/hear.

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Just now, Eleran said:

You keep saying "instrumental medium" - please define exactly what non-electronic instruments to which you refer, if you are ruling out orchestras, opera companies, ballet companies, british-style brass bands, etc.   I've been waiting for 90 pages for you to actually back up that argument with facts, but you seem unable or unwilling to do so.

And as for your having direct experience, you've already admitted that you have NONE, even as an audience member, when it comes to those ensembles I named.  You call me unhinged, because you can't put together an argument better than a pompous  "I know best, so all you old people should just die off and leave the planet to me."     You call everyone else's statements biased, when you are the one with a personal career interest in the sound engineered world.   

I'm sorry, how were you able to get through life with your poor reading comprehension skills?

I've said multiple times that whether or not these techniques are being used depends on the rep being played, the ensemble, and the venue. I've provided an example of a major institution that is using technology to enhance their acoustic performances. You're choosing to ignore that because it doesn't fit your personal narrative and experiences. While major orchestras that are playing Classical (pre-modernism) rep in quality venues probably aren't using amplification, any time they play chamber music pieces, or anything newer than 1900, the odds of them using tech jumps up depending on their venue. Or have you not noticed how many string instruments are fitted with pickups?

Yes I work in music technology, but I also have a Master's degree in composition in addition to my degree in music technology, and a PhD in composition and theory. I'm immersed in the instrumental music scene and go to tons of performances with orchestral instruments CONSTANTLY. Here's something you don't realize. The orchestras/opera are a very small part of the new music community. Why? Access to professional orchestras that are willing to play new music is ABYSMAL. They mostly stick to playing music by dead white guys, and leave very little room for living composers. 

So the vast majority of music composed and performed today is for chamber ensembles, small duos and trios, and mixed ensembles with electronics. Technology plays a huge role in the presentation of new music, whether or not you're willing to see that. 

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58 minutes ago, Eleran said:

Here in central NJ I'd say that all (or nearly all) HS marching bands use amplification of the front ensemble, and often stationary microphones for soloists (from brass to flutes).  Many also occasionally use clip-on microphones for individual soloists staged away from the sideline.  Soundboards are usually manned by the band director or an assistant director (i.e. an adult, since that question will probably be asked).

This is standard practice here in Ohio too for the vast majority of the approximately 225 or so competition bands (there's only one more or less notable competing band in the state that I know of that has never used amplification). It's much less common for the halftime/festival bands, although I think the first time I ever encountered amplification in marching band (possibly already in use at BOA at the time, but I'd never heard of that circuit then) was a high school band doing a HBCU-style halftime show circa 1988.

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8 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said:

I've provided an example of a major institution that is using technology to enhance their acoustic performances. You're choosing to ignore that because it doesn't fit your personal narrative and experiences.

The orchestras/opera are a very small part of the new music community. Why? Access to professional orchestras that are willing to play new music is ABYSMAL. They mostly stick to playing music by dead white guys, and leave very little room for living composers. 

So the vast majority of music composed and performed today is for chamber ensembles, small duos and trios, and mixed ensembles with electronics. Technology plays a huge role in the presentation of new music, whether or not you're willing to see that. 

You didn't provide "an example of a major institution that is using technology to enhance their acoustic performances" .  You provided an example of a major institution retrofitting a rehearsal space so they could offer up new experimental music SIX TIMES A YEAR, while continuing to serve acoustically in their normal house their regular customers  (who number 150x those attending the experimental works).  

Yes orchestras/opera are a very small part of the new music community - but you keep acting like that new music community is larger than the existing classical music industry.   If your new music is really so successful and prevalent, then wouldn't SF be able to book their new venue which serves it up more than 6 nights a week?!?   How many people are actually listening to those duos and trios and mixed ensembles you mention?

Edited by Eleran
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11 minutes ago, ShortAndFast said:

Just to this part: in the theater last night you could clearly see both brass & percussion judges tracking from side 1 to side 2 and back. They can go a couple of yards onto the field, so they didn't seem to have any trouble navigating to be in front of whatever they wanted to see/hear.

They were moving around to try and find that non existent sweet spot that had less Gooooooooooooo. Which does not exist in the Oil Can. 

Moving Science Brah. 

Edited by E3D
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10 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said:

I work in music technology, but I also have a Master's degree in composition in addition to my degree in music technology, and a PhD in composition and theory. I'm immersed in the instrumental music scene and go to tons of performances with orchestral instruments CONSTANTLY. Here's something you don't realize. The orchestras/opera are a very small part of the new music community. Why? Access to professional orchestras that are willing to play new music is ABYSMAL. They mostly stick to playing music by dead white guys, and leave very little room for living composers. 

I am not involved in this thread but have been following the posts. Thank you for sharing your qualifications. I am very impressed.

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