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Just now, Eleran said:

You didn't provide "an example of a major institution that is using technology to enhance their acoustic performances" .  You provided an example of a major institution retrofitting a rehearsal space so they could offering new experimental music SIX TIMES A YEAR, while continuing to serve acoustically in their normal house their regular customers  (who number 150x those attending the experimental work).  

 Yes orchestras/opera are a very small part of the new music community - but you keep acting like that new music community is larger than the existing classical music industry.   If your new music is really so successful and prevalent, then wouldn't SF be able to book their new venue which serves it up more than 6 nights a week?!?   How many people are actually listening to those duos and trios and mixed ensembles you mention?

It says clearly in the article that they perform all types of music in that space, including a specific mention of medieval pieces that take advantage of the technology to make the space sound like a cathedral. Perusing the website you can see that they preformed Monteverdi and other period pieces in there as well. 

This space is one example of the tech being used to enhance acoustic performances, which you were adamant doesn't happen at all. 

If you dig in further you'll find other ensembles and venues that are doing the same. National Sawdust comes to mind, as does the San Francisco New Music Center, Tanglewood, etc. etc. etc. No of course the larger buildings like Davies proper, and the BSO don't use amplification because their multi-million dollar buildings were constructed specifically to create a perfect acoustic space. However smaller venues, and those with less perfect acoustic situations (like the soundbox and others I've mentioned) use amplification to recreate those conditions that otherwise only exist in these incredibly expensive specially designed rooms. That being said, I saw a Mason Bates concert in Davies with amplified instruments/voices and organ, so it does happen. 

As for the popularity of new music itself...who cares? Orchestras play "the hits" because it brings in cash which allows them to invest in other ventures, that doesn't negate the work that's being done by composers and musicians that are working with other forces, nor does it negate the fact that technology plays a large part in most of those performances. 

You're continually moving the goalposts. First it was that instrumental music doesn't use tech, then it was symphony orchestras don't, now it's that those that use tech aren't popular enough to appear on your radar. 

Take the 'L' man. You've been proven wrong at every point. 

 

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On 8/7/2019 at 5:57 PM, JimF-LowBari said:

Well.... earliest “option” I can think of is adding that first valve. Since then can’t thinknof any “option” that wasn’t eventually used by all corps. 

Except those #### marching steel drums that thankful have been rusting since 1976

George had Coz spend a fortune re-tuning those steel drums several times during the season.

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21 minutes ago, Rich Cline said:

I am not involved in this thread but have been following the posts. Thank you for sharing your qualifications. I am very impressed.

I agree.  This is obviously a learned poster who knows what he/she is talking about. What I most like about this thread is the amount of new knowledge available. Some here are attempting to squeeze-out some sort of argumentative ‘win.’  Why?

MarimbaManiac has much to offer all of us !  

 

Edited by Fred Windish
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2 minutes ago, Fred Windish said:

I agree.  This is obviously a learned poster who knows what he/she is talking about. What I most like about this thread is the amount of new knowledge available. Some here are attempting to squeeze-out some sort of argumentative ‘win.’  Why?

MarimbaManic has much to offer all of us !  

 

Could not agree more. Sometimes, you learn more by just listening.

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23 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said:

Several things...

Higher frequencies tend to be directional, while lower frequencies tend to spread out evenly in all directions. 

Your ears are able to filter out sounds that are coming from behind you, and focus on the sounds directly in front oh you (hence why they're shaped the way they are). 

Sounds coming from behind you, especially lower frequencies, need to be MUCH louder than what's in front of you in order to perceive them as equal (ask anyone who has tried to balance a 5.1 or 7.1 system in a performance space. 

So yes, brass judges who are standing behind speakers (which are directional and pointing away from the judge), and facing the horns (which are directional and pointing at the judge), are easily able to distinguish the horns from what's coming from the speakers. This is especially true when you consider the Fletcher-Munson curve, which shows that the ear perceives higher frequencies (between the 2000-5000hz range) to be louder than lower frequencies, even when each are equal in intensity. So a tone at 100hz at 40db will sound significantly softer than a tone at 2000hz also at 40db...especially when considering directionality. 

So yes, they can hear the horns. 

It's science. 

Just shouting "science" at the end of your argument does not make it correct.

In reality, both you and garfield have made valid points.  The truth is somewhere in between.  Yes, standing alongside or behind a loudspeaker can allow you to dodge its sound to some degree.  But it is only a matter of degree.  If the speaker is loud enough, it will still be competing with the brass sounds.  If speakers are positioned differently (or the judge has to move out of the path of performers), results will vary.  The same directionality that helps the judge pick out high brass, leaves more of a challenge in isolating low brass sounds.  And the judge has to fairly evaluate different hornlines against differing degrees of electronic interference.

By the way, the corps sound engineers know science too... and they can use it to create electronic sound that resembles brass sound if that is what they desire.

Oh, and while ear shape does lean in favor of sound in front of us, it does not "filter out" sounds from behind.  If it did, our species would have gone extinct eons ago.  Because science.

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"Filter out" might not have been the right term, but the ear does perceive sound in front of us far more efficiently than that coming from behind us. Hence when you're balancing a multi-channel array, those channels behind and to the side will usually need to be set louder than those directly in front, if the intent is to perceive them equally. 

 

science.

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17 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said:

"Filter out" might not have been the right term, but the ear does perceive sound in front of us far more efficiently than that coming from behind us. Hence when you're balancing a multi-channel array, those channels behind and to the side will usually need to be set louder than those directly in front, if the intent is to perceive them equally. 

 

science.

Subs can be placed nearly anywhere in a room.

Science.

Ever see a fan in the stands "cup" his ears?  It's because that's a mechanical "filter" because the human ear can't filter out noises around it.

Science.

Hearing aids are programmable to attenuate the sounds coming from in front of the listener for times when, say, in a noisy ("Gooey") restaurant, sounds from behind and the side can't be filtered by the human ear.

Science.

Oh, and let's not forget those pesky battery drummers who are constantly muddying up the sound from the horns.  Is the human ear able to filter those out as well?

Because, you know, "science" says it can according to you.

Nice CV, BTW.  Not taking any of that away from you but, like the rest of us here, you frame your arguments to demonstrate how right and smart you are.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, denverjohn said:

George had Coz spend a fortune re-tuning those steel drums several times during the season.

And they carried one per person. Flipping Matadors had two per person. Mount Carmel exhibition show straps on one of them slipped or twisted and poor guy could only go to his knees and wait to get unhooked. 

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18 minutes ago, garfield said:

Subs can be placed nearly anywhere in a room.

Science.

Ever see a fan in the stands "cup" his ears?  It's because that's a mechanical "filter" because the human ear can't filter out noises around it.

Science.

Hearing aids are programmable to attenuate the sounds coming from in front of the listener for times when, say, in a noisy ("Gooey") restaurant, sounds from behind and the side can't be filtered by the human ear.

Science.

Oh, and let's not forget those pesky battery drummers who are constantly muddying up the sound from the horns.  Is the human ear able to filter those out as well?

Because, you know, "science" says it can according to you.

Nice CV, BTW.  Not taking any of that away from you but, like the rest of us here, you frame your arguments to demonstrate how right and smart you are.

 

 

...and what is the point of any of that?

Subs can be placed anywhere in a room. Correct, but directional high frequencies from a close source will always be perceived louder than an omnidirectional low frequency. 

Hearing aids....not sure how this is relevant. You're talking about someone with reduced hearing (which can mean they have a hard time hearing the higher frequency range) in a situation with no comparison to what we are discussing (brass judges on the field). 

Battery drummers....how is this different than pre-A&E? Judges (members, instructors) have always had to listen through the ensemble to hear specific elements. #### for a front ensemble member that's our raison d'etre! "Listen for the drumline, ignore the trumpets blaring behind you and try and hear the snares!" It's a pretty standard skillset in this activity. 

Edited by MarimbaManiac
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38 minutes ago, garfield said:

Hearing aids are programmable to attenuate the sounds coming from in front of the listener for times when, say, in a noisy ("Gooey") restaurant, sounds from behind and the side can't be filtered by the human ear.

 

 

 

Hearing aids can tell which direction the sound is coming from? Man I got ripped off...

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