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10 minutes ago, jwillis35 said:

While this stuff sounds fishy and all, in reality judges can tell when half or less of the ensemble is being mic'd vs not. It's an obvious sound. I could tell years ago (before amps and mics) when a corps watered down their most difficult brass parts for only the best players. That sort of thing has been going on for years. Even the best corps have watered down their horn books to improve cleanliness going into finals week. 

Also, I believe it was 3 years ago (?) that SCV use field wireless mics on about 25 to 30 players who were playing different parts from the full ensemble, and then when they were playing with the full ensemble the mics were turned off. It was something like that. I didn't have a problem with it. 

It the end, all the mic/amp combo does is amplify the sound being produced by the instrument. That can be a good or bad thing depending on how well they play. But good musicians can tell the difference between 30 mic'd brass players and 80 acoustic brass players. The notion that you can make ensemble brass sound bigger by amping 4 or 5 folks to replace 20 or 30 is ridiculous. Listen to the great big bands (using mics)and while they are fantastic they do not sound like 40 or 50 brass, let alone 70 or 80. 

I think people are worried that some corps are cheating. No. That is not happening. If they are amping 20 or 30 players, it is for a certain effect or to help the players better produce their tone and articulation without forcing the sound. That is all. Nothing sinister. Very much what most corps do these days with solos. I get the sense this thread is bringing up the notion that some corps, or corps(s) are trying to cheat. Trust me, judges can tell who is playing, how many are playing, and what they are playing. They can then apply the appropriate credit for who is achieving the musical content, how it's done, and so forth. You simply cannot cheat the sound of a large brass line. Using 20 or 30 people on the field with mics does not cut the mustard. I enjoyed Future Corps (back in the day when they marched around Epcott and Disney), and that mic'd up style was what they did, but it's still not 80 brass. 

Not anymore.....

It's that good and subtle. These hornlines are still very loud on their own, They are just loud and focused and balanced at all times.. 

So to me its not Cheating, Its giving the designers a way for the audience to hear exactly what they want us to hear all the time regardless of the field placement.

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As long as its live I've got no issue... 

Once you start replacing live sounds with pre-recorded sounds that's where the performance is taken out of the performers hands, and the perfect show has less elements to make perfect.. 

Thats a line I dont want crossed. But I'm sure there will be groups that cross that line and get away with it... 

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1 hour ago, barigirl78 said:

What would I think?

The more I hear about this stuff, it impacts how impressed I am with what I'm hearing.  If what I'm hearing is mostly a talented soundboard guy and expensive equipment, then the "wow" factor is gone.

On the other hand, it makes me more impressed by the corps who aren't doing it.  Maybe they don't sound as good, but at least it is authentic.

Legal or not, it's disappointing as a fan.

Imagine if baseball made steroids legal and, suddenly, the number of home runs doubled.  The home run would become less of impressive, as would the artificially pumped up players.

15 yard penalty for common sense and loss of down because of logic.

Neither of those are welcome in drum corps design.

 

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55 minutes ago, Terri Schehr said:

In all honesty, there is one brassline that has totally thrown me off with their sound for the last three seasons.   

Funnily enough I can think of one brass line whose sound signature and style changed dramatically about 3 years ago 

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4 hours ago, MarimbaManiac said:

The corps are evolving to match the current state of live performance, and the expectation of a listening public that is trained to experience live sound in a certain way. The questions being asked here are the wrong ones. Instead of asking "How does this compare to drum corps performances from 20 years ago," the designers are asking "How does this compare to other live performances in different genres/spaces."

The basic standard for live sound at this point, is to use technology (amplification, EQ, live effects, monitoring, etc) to maximize the sound quality, utilizing the performance space and bringing the best possible sound to the maximum number of people within that space. Every single live outdoor performance (or indoor large venues) uses amplification to balance and project to the listeners. Ever been to an outdoor orchestral performance? Yeah they're using individual and group amplification for reinforcement. Rock/Pop/Jazz/etc at a football stadium or large amphitheater? They're amplifying and using monitoring. It's about maximizing sound quality and clarity of intent. 

Yes, drum corps managed for decades without this, but times have changed and I GUARANTEE that your memories of those performances are colored by your own biases. If you time traveled back to the 70's to hear one those performances now, you would be struck at how muddled and unbalanced the sound feels now that your ears have become accustomed to the high level of sound production that is now being achieved on the field. ESPECIALLY when you consider that the recordings of those performances were recorded with multiple microphones, and then balanced, EQd, and mastered in a studio before being released. 

Times have changed, live sound design is infinitely better now, get a grip.

Jim Ott would string you up by your hackey sack for accusing the '78-'80 SOA horn lines of not being #### near perfect in clarity and balance.  Those horn lines worked hundreds of hours just to achieve that sound.  If you gave Jim the sound equipment that Bloo has today, he would put a horn line out there that would make the rest of World Class quit playing at all.

And before anyone says anything, I quit DCI almost a year ago.. yes.  And I tuned in this week to see how many of my doomsday predictions came true.  Sadly, all of them.  Peace out...

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1 minute ago, Tenoris4Jazz said:

Jim Ott would string you up by your hackey sack for accusing the '78-'80 SOA horn lines of not being #### near perfect in clarity and balance.  Those horn lines worked hundreds of hours just to achieve that sound.  If you gave Jim the sound equipment that Bloo has today, he would put a horn line out there that would make the rest of World Class quit playing at all.

And before anyone says anything, I quit DCI almost a year ago.. yes.  And I tuned in this week to see how many of my doomsday predictions came true.  Sadly, all of them.  Peace out...

And it's doomsday?  I must have missed the memo.

That's next year, so stop back, eh?

 

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8 minutes ago, Glenn426 said:

Not anymore.....

It's that good and subtle. These hornlines are still very loud on their own, They are just loud and focused and balanced at all times.. 

So to me its not Cheating, Its giving the designers a way for the audience to hear exactly what they want us to hear all the time regardless of the field placement.

I get what you're saying, but I do not see 70 or 80 wireless mics on anyone's brass line. There may be cases where small ensembles are mic'd, but I have not seen any corps using 30 or more mics on their brass. It's the staging that allows these corps to perform and sound different than in the past...not to mention better overall talent and better brass instrument. And most of what we see in terms of field mics are for FLO or for DCI recordings. IDK, I will double check all this, but I simply do not see that many field wireless mics with the exception of solos or small ensembles.

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11 minutes ago, Glenn426 said:

Not anymore.....

It's that good and subtle. These hornlines are still very loud on their own, They are just loud and focused and balanced at all times.. 

So to me its not Cheating, Its giving the designers a way for the audience to hear exactly what they want us to hear all the time regardless of the field placement.

 

1 minute ago, garfield said:

And it's doomsday?  I must have missed the memo.

That's next year, so stop back, eh?

 

You had a contest halted because the stadium wouldn't allow props on the field, which resulted in the remaining units being unable to march their shows.  So now it doesn't matter how many great MM's we have, if we can't roll out the off-Broadway stage equipment, we don't have a show.  

You won't see me again.  I'm just here to put flowers on the grave.  Bye.

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Appreciate the feedback from all.  Discussion was the goal here.  My own feelings:

1.  There are larger differences in sound design than most of us realize.

2.  Much of the amplification DOES sound excellent and improve the audience experience.

3.  It is very expensive to do sound design competently.  Some groups already struggle with travel, nutrition, medical staff, and affording quality instruction.  It concerns me that the latter items may suffer to afford the upgrade in electronics.

4.  This IS a competition.  Yes, the rules are the same for all...but few can fully make use of them.  If numbers and rankings played NO part in the activity, I suppose I wouldn’t be concerned.  But we do assign numbers, and in an already very subjective system of evaluation, amplification influences listeners more than we may know.

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1 minute ago, Tenoris4Jazz said:

 

You had a contest halted because the stadium wouldn't allow props on the field, which resulted in the remaining units being unable to march their shows.  So now it doesn't matter how many great MM's we have, if we can't roll out the off-Broadway stage equipment, we don't have a show.  

You won't see me again.  I'm just here to put flowers on the grave.  Bye.

OK, then!  Ciao!

 

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