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3 minutes ago, garfield said:

Wow, so you're in favor of the emergence of another "Super-Duper League of Extra-Special Corps That Are the Draw", then, is that right?

There are sometimes outside board member positions available in DCI.  I please ask that you not apply.

 

Time to bring the G7 gang back together!

Edited by Cappybara
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3 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said:

Nice quip, but it's without any sort of meaning. 

A&E and props are used enhance what's being put on the field by the members, as designed by the designers. Without a compelling design, or talented members to execute it with sustained excellence, it means nothing. They work in tandem to create the ultimate product, and its success is based on all parts of that synergy firing on all cylinders. 

What does amplifying a brass section do, if the brass section isn't performing well? Does it magically make them better, or does it simply amplify their mistakes? I think everyone here is misunderstanding and overestimating what live sound is able to do. Balance and mix multiple tracks, and tune to adjust to the room? Sure. Master, edit, autotune, and correct mistakes LIVE? Ummm no. 

What the members DO is still at the forefront, it's just being enhanced in a way that's allowing them to present their work in the best possible way. 

You are overly focused on the sound. Don't keep insulting everyone's intelligence, we know how mics work.

 I am focused on what amplification allows corps to do VISUALLY vs corps who don't have the means to pay for a sound engineering team and equipment

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1 hour ago, karuna said:

Interesting that the advocates for ultra-amplification try to turn the argument to "we just help the audience hear you" instead of addressing the true driver of this technological debacle:  visual designers wanted it.  Why?  Because it "frees" them from the requirements of proper staging.  No one wants to talk about that.  Instead it's "reinforce" this and "audience benefit" that which is all a bunch of misdirection.  Some visual designers have lofty aspirations to go "beyond drum corps" and create some pseudo-stage production.  

But reality hits that hard in the face.  

Stage productions have (wait for it) a real stage.

They have lighting.  They have a curtain.  They have an actual sound system tuned to the venue.  They have a real "off stage".  They have an entire professional crew to handle props, lighting, sound.  

The list is endless.  

But a handful of designers aspire to the stage. 

On a football field.  

And they don't want to do "drill" because that's just not done on a stage.  Therefore they want the "freedom" to place musicians wherever they like on the gridiron :doh: 

It's absurd.   Blast! worked because it had all those things.  It's painfully obvious some productions we see don't.  And a lot of Broadway reviewers still slammed Blast!  even with all those advantages.  

"It's the Bluecoats" sort of works but in fact the music completely carries this production (all hail Rarick and Thrower)   .   If you really examine the sheets carefully the show falls flat on it's face visually.  Don't get me wrong -- it's entertaining and I like the show.  But it's really not being judged properly on a set of visual sheets designed for drill.  Nevertheless a handful of designers have convinced the judging community to creatively interpret the criteria to credit it visually.

It's not about sound.  And it's not about brass. And it's not about sound reinforcement.  It's all about a few old guys who are in love with broadway and think they can bring it to a football field.  And don't you dare tell them they can't!

But in the process they've destroyed one of the most unique and difficult aspects of creating a drum corps show: environmental challenges.  It took amazing skill on both the visual designer's part and brass instructors part to get brass instruments separated by 70 yards to play together.   Now the sound engineers do it.  Drum corps used to be the performers playing their instruments.  Now it's playing stagehand, pushing a prop, and listening to a click track.  Is that REALLY where we want the activity to go?  I know I don't.  

Amplification has its place. The front ensemble certainly needed it.   And I can understand there are moments when soloists perhaps need it.   And I don't mind synths or electronic instruments.  I don't want to return to bugles and marching bells.  

But it's already gone far beyond that.  80 brass players certainly don't need amplification of the full ensemble!  It's downright silly.   

DCI needs to rethink this now.  Because it's just going to keep getting sillier and sillier.  

</rant>

You need to look closer at the sheets.  Bluecoats are scoring in the top 2-3 (occasionally achieving 1) on visual.  They peak the classic visual demand for marching and maneuvering by the end of the introductory statement... and there's a whole lot more left after that.

'Depends on the music and falls flat on it's face visually'... wishful thinking.

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2 hours ago, Fred Windish said:

Onionhead -

Don’t doubt for a minute your in-person experience was not satisfactory. I’m sure I wouldn’t want to sit in certain seats. That’s a problem to be solved. But, reading all this has given me additional patience with the ‘mission.’ I think those active in delivering this product will get there!

The heavy-handed goo should be easiest to control. Don’t know why that hasn’t happened across the board. But, achieving the other benefits of technology is a worthy pursuit , I think.

Even a single guitar player under a small outside festival tent can be made more enjoyable for most of the live, in-person audience. Still, a a listener up close to even a small speaker might find things too harsh, yes.

There is much to be learned here. That will take time, and money unfortunately.

Maybe this technology can be made available to all competing Corps thru DCI and the manufacturers, so everyone is on a level field, and money doesn't buy the Gold.

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1 minute ago, Cappybara said:

You are overly focused on the sound. Don't keep insulting everyone's intelligence, we know how mics work.

 I am focused on what amplification allows corps to do VISUALLY vs corps who don't have the means to pay for a sound engineering team and equipment

Do you? I'm not so sure. 

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2 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said:

Nice quip, but it's without any sort of meaning. 

A&E and props are used enhance what's being put on the field by the members, as designed by the designers. Without a compelling design, or talented members to execute it with sustained excellence, it means nothing. They work in tandem to create the ultimate product, and its success is based on all parts of that synergy firing on all cylinders. 

What does amplifying a brass section do, if the brass section isn't performing well? Does it magically make them better, or does it simply amplify their mistakes? I think everyone here is misunderstanding and overestimating what live sound is able to do. Balance and mix multiple tracks, and tune to adjust to the room? Sure. Master, edit, autotune, and correct mistakes LIVE? Ummm no. 

What the members DO is still at the forefront, it's just being enhanced in a way that's allowing them to present their work in the best possible way. 

I'm sorry, this makes no sense.

Are "balance" and mixing "multiple tracks" and "tuning to the room" part of the judging rubric?  (Yes, of course.)

Is it possible that a corps using these tools are better at those three things as a result and, also a result, they score higher because of their use?  (Yes, of course.)

I've got no such misunderstanding of A&E's potential so please don't include me in "everyone".

What the members "Do" is play less, play with "enhanced" sound support, and push props.  They all do that to the extent they can afford it and, per the current judging sheets, those who can afford better tools are better rewarded for their balance, mixing, and tuning.  All others just need to step to the back of the room and let "the draw" through.

That's no competition.

 

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7 minutes ago, onionhead said:

Maybe this technology can be made available to all competing Corps thru DCI and the manufacturers, so everyone is on a level field, and money doesn't buy the Gold.

Standard set of equipment that is provided by DCI at each show? Interesting idea as would cut down on corps expenses (equipment itself and wheels to haul) and amount if time needed to set up between corps.

edit: goes with my post years ago of DCI being clearing house for transportation so Corps (if they choose) could pay lower for a group rate. Good advertising for bus company to provide for DCI instead of individual Corps 

Edited by JimF-LowBari
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Annnnnd so if the answer is use sound equipment to enhance/improve /allow audience to hear better..... what is the “educational” part if more and more is going from the members talents and more to tweaking knobs

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1 minute ago, garfield said:

What the members "Do" is play less, play with "enhanced" sound support, and push props.  They all do that to the extent they can afford it and, per the current judging sheets, those who can afford better tools are better rewarded for their balance, mixing, and tuning.  All others just need to step to the back of the room and let "the draw" through.

What shows are you watching? The members are playing less, compared to whom/when?

These kids are doing amazing things on the the field. The enhancement of A&E are allowing them to do that better and more naturally without having to compromise technique for the purpose of projection. 

Look at the evolution of the front ensemble technique after A&E. The approach by the musicians has become more natural, musical, dexterous, and virtuosic since the need for banging the keys for the sake of projection was removed. Now these musicians are playing things that I could have never imagined when I marched. 

The concept is the same for the enhanced brass support and amped soloists. I'd anticipate the trend to be that the musicians will be playing more notes, idiomatically, and with better tone quality because of the support provided by A&E. 

 

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4 minutes ago, onionhead said:

Maybe this technology can be made available to all competing Corps thru DCI and the manufacturers, so everyone is on a level field, and money doesn't buy the Gold.

There are sometimes outside board member positions available at DCI.

Please apply.

Except the history of the activity shows the corps not being willing to commit dollars, time, or assets to other corps who don't compete with them, so you'll have to work towards changing that viewpoint.

 

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