N.E. Brigand Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 1 hour ago, MarimbaManiac said: No, and again you're asking the wrong questions. These techniques are used by sound engineers to correct problems that are created when you perform music in a venue like a football stadium or dome. The problems have existed since the beginning, but there were no means to address them until A&E. The introduction of technology didn't create the issues, it just provided an avenue to correct them. See, the idea that those were problems is an opinion. Which is fine, but it should be acknowledged as such. A contrary opinion is that drum corps and other outdoor performance activities require different techniques. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 26 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said: Again, you're not understanding the problems, and conflating the techniques with the issues at hand. The problems are with undesirable frequencies and phase cancellation issues created by the venues themselves, and are present when any music/sounds are presented in those venues, electronic or acoustic. Filtering and other techniques help mitigate those issues, and fix the acoustic irregularities of the venue. I’ll ask Cixelsyd: what were the perceptible, inherent “problems” that needed fixed pre-A&E? Can they be named? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 It's good to be reminded that there were a lot of people involved in drum corps in the 1990s who apparently just hated how it sounded. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 Nearly ten years ago, when I and others here were arguing that pit amplification was no more necessary than the mostly hypothetical notion of brass amplification (and the totally hypothetical notion that large brass ensembles would be miked), those in favor of pit amplification said we were spinning fairy tales because corps would never do anything like that: there was no need to mic more than the occasional brass solo for effect because brass instruments were already plenty loud. So it seems like an appropriate time to say: I told you so. 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarimbaManiac Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, garfield said: I’ll ask Cixelsyd: what were the perceptible, inherent “problems” that needed fixed pre-A&E? Can they be named? Inability to perceive certain ranges of the frequency spectrum because the resonant frequencies of the venue "fill up the space" Loss of certain directional frequencies because of open air or open front/back stands, or conversely reflections of those frequencies in a closed environment. Slapback delay effects from reflections from concrete stands or high concrete walls. A lack of diffusive surfaces that prevent the sound from reaching the audience or box. Field coverings that absorb low frequencies All issues that occur when presenting music in a stadium, that can be corrected with a good sound design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said: Again, I would suggest your memory of legacy performances are being colored by your biases. For many recognize that the sound HAS improved as you can now hear all elements of the ensemble in the mix, with a greater clarity of intent, and with a mitigation of the environmental problems that were always present. Though I guess you and your brother would need to take that up with the Cirque guy if you disagree. I'm sure that would be an interesting conversation. Oh please, this is the second time you’ve tried this tripe. Quit trying to find solutions in my mental incapacity - I don’t have your CV but I’ve seen a lot of drum corps shows! Now I’ll try to read your point after the improbable psychobabble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarimbaManiac Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 13 minutes ago, garfield said: Oh please, this is the second time you’ve tried this tripe. Quit trying to find solutions in my mental incapacity - I don’t have your CV but I’ve seen a lot of drum corps shows! Now I’ll try to read your point after the improbable psychobabble. Protest all you want, I think I'm hitting the nail on the head. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfirwin3 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 24 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said: It's good to be reminded that there were a lot of people involved in drum corps in the 1990s who apparently just hated how it sounded. Why must doing something new (that actually sounds the same, for what it's worth) mean that the old thing was 'hated'. As they say in the back country of Maine: "Ya caant get theah from heah." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 15 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said: Inability to perceive certain ranges of the frequency spectrum because the resonant frequencies of the venue "fill up the space" Loss of certain directional frequencies because of open air or open front/back stands, or conversely reflections of those frequencies in a closed environment. Slapback delay effects from reflections from concrete stands or high concrete walls. A lack of diffusive surfaces that prevent the sound from reaching the audience or box. Field coverings that absorb low frequencies All issues that occur when presenting music in a stadium, that can be corrected with a good sound design. I am not, and would never, denigrate your professional CV; that’s not my intent. I started to type a bunch of crap, but it all comes down to this: Why, with all this knowledge and wizardry that you say is being so effectively used, is the perceptible impact to so much of the paying audience actually denigrated by its use? And, seriously, considering that the only BIG money comes from a Saturday night in The Can,, shows are tuned to Saturday night and all other shows be ######, effectively. Regardless if they hit their dials on the mixer in Dublin Ohio on August 1st (oops), their real payday still comes Saturday night in The Can. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarimbaManiac Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said: Why must doing something new (that actually sounds the same, for what it's worth) mean that the old thing was 'hated'. As they say in the back country of Maine: "Ya caant get theah from heah." I think the real issue here has very little to do with the product that's being created, or the sound designers and their work, it's the fact that some "legacy" fans/alumni have the need to feel as if their "way" was the "right way." There is this desire to reject changes (regardless of their positive attributes), because it wasn't how they did it, and they don't see the need. A&E has helped allow these programs to design fully immersive and dynamic stage shows, with phenomenal clarity and depth, but the response from some is just "it was better the other way." I think earlier in this thread you said earlier that drum corps has a "machismo" problem, and I agree. Edited August 7, 2019 by MarimbaManiac 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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