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Not for arguments sake here, but I reviewed last summers announcement several times, there is NO mention of a need to attract members.  I agree they packaged it in a way that just don't sell the idea whatsoever.  The message here may be obvious:  If one tries to obfuscate the real issue at hand by offering distractors, they set themselves up for just what happened here.  Like so many other contributors here, I want the best for the MS, but in keeping all the same leadership in place, I fear that the same outcomes are inevitable.  To our football fans:  Did the Dallas Cowboys keep their head coach after 2019's losing season?  It was time to turn the page for them.  It is way beyond that time for the MS.  

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15 hours ago, JustEnjoyIt said:

Just a few things from this thread:

  • Comparing Madison Scouts being male-only to Hooters and Rockettes.... I'm not even sure where to start with that one.
    • One of those three groups is a non-profit youth music group. One of the others is a sports bar that sells beer and sliders. The other is a paid dance group (that also holds both male and female auditions for their main Christmas Spectacular - and as far as I'm aware also for their Rockettes Summer Intensive youth program for those that look to join Rockettes one day - to show they have adapted as well).
  • Questioning why the same wasn't said about all-female drum corps and why nothing is being said now about them: They're gone... The majority of the people happy to see this change in Madison here in 2020 would be happy to see those groups changing... if they were still a thing. But they're gone...
  • Asking why people weren't upset over Crossmen's all-female guard. People WERE upset with them making that change, and rightfully so. Same with Phantom. I had no intention in supporting either group while they were like that, and the way both groups went about it was pretty terrible.
  • Bringing up cymbal lines... comparing gender restrictions to shifting instrument needs.... this is just so bad. 

 

Also, it's super ironic to be jokingly screaming about people needing "safe spaces" while simultaneously screaming to have an exclusionary space. Sounds kinda like the triggered snowflakes some of you speak of.


Which of you big boys want to go tell one of the talented women joining this year that you do not want them in your group, all for the sake of keeping it 'boys only, no girls allowed'? Anyone want to step up and do it? No? Just want to let rules do it? Want to go tell some of the guys at Spirit, or Boston, or Crown, or BD that they had a lesser experience than you did - all because their groups let women in it and your special super club didn't? Get yourselves together and help this group make it a wonderful season for all of the 2020 Scouts.

 

I do not care what reasons the Scouts had for doing this. What is important is that it is something GOOD. Society moves forward, groups learn and adapt. We can't go back and complain about how past groups didn't receive criticism - we have to view these groups as they are right now in 2020. 

In the words of someone wise:

 

 I will get banned if I respond to this post so I'll just leave it alone.

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43 minutes ago, wilder1966 said:

Not for arguments sake here, but I reviewed last summers announcement several times, there is NO mention of a need to attract members.  I agree they packaged it in a way that just don't sell the idea whatsoever.  The message here may be obvious:  If one tries to obfuscate the real issue at hand by offering distractors, they set themselves up for just what happened here.  Like so many other contributors here, I want the best for the MS, but in keeping all the same leadership in place, I fear that the same outcomes are inevitable.  To our football fans:  Did the Dallas Cowboys keep their head coach after 2019's losing season?  It was time to turn the page for them.  It is way beyond that time for the MS.  

Darn right.

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8 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

i've seen varying reports of if this happened or not. i dont care, if it helps fine. i do agree with others administration has made messes and alienated people long before last july

If people are suggesting that Dann and Chris are liars and they didn't do it, then that's just another ridiculous statement to make with no knowledge of facts. In addition to official polling conducted by the corps, in October of 2017 Chad Hanes (better known as Chadwick Michael these days), an alumnus from 2007-2008, conducted polls. He gathered email addresses from every member that was on Corps Data (which is almost 100% of members since 2009 or so since it was required for us to use the site as members and a significant amount of older alums since it's constantly encouraged to update your info on the site) and sent polls. I was harshly critical of the manner in which Chad conducted the polls in part because it looked like official communication from the drum corps. I think it was about 130 members that responded from the 2017 edition of the corps with 90% in favor of going co-ed. The further back in the membership you went, the lower the participation rate and the lower the percentage of alums voting in favor of going co-ed. Around that time the Scouts were drafting an announcement that they were allowing transgender members and Chad released an article that was critical of the organization for discrimination. I talked with Steve Powers on 10/26/17 and he informed me that they were pushing up the announcement of allowing transgender members and I expressed that I would hope that the announcement wouldn't look like it was conceding to an alumnus that had gone rogue and attempted to put a stranglehold on the corps. That same day I talked with Kent Eversmeyer (1981-1984?) and he informed me that a vote was impending on whether or not to go co-ed and that current members had polled in favor of allowing women into the corps.

Edited by weedyweidenthal

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Flam man is wise in saying what he said "if I respond to this post, I'll be banned"  there is more truth to that than one can suspect.  I now approach my comments with the same fearful regard as George, Elaine, and Jerry did with the "Soup Nazi".   Speak quickly, quietly, and fearfully, or its "No Soup For You"!   At least we can still have a few laughs among ourselves..but  very quietly...

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4 hours ago, FlamMan said:

 I will get banned if I respond to this post so I'll just leave it alone.

go for it LOL

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4 hours ago, weedyweidenthal said:

If people are suggesting that Dann and Chris are liars and they didn't do it, then that's just another ridiculous statement to make with no knowledge of facts. In addition to official polling conducted by the corps, in October of 2017 Chad Hanes (better known as Chadwick Michael these days), an alumnus from 2007-2008, conducted polls. He gathered email addresses from every member that was on Corps Data (which is almost 100% of members since 2009 or so since it was required for us to use the site as members and a significant amount of older alums since it's constantly encouraged to update your info on the site) and sent polls. I was harshly critical of the manner in which Chad conducted the polls in part because it looked like official communication from the drum corps. I think it was about 130 members that responded from the 2017 edition of the corps with 90% in favor of going co-ed. The further back in the membership you went, the lower the participation rate and the lower the percentage of alums voting in favor of going co-ed. Around that time the Scouts were drafting an announcement that they were allowing transgender members and Chad released an article that was critical of the organization for discrimination. I talked with Steve Powers on 10/26/17 and he informed me that they were pushing up the announcement of allowing transgender members and I expressed that I would hope that the announcement wouldn't look like it was conceding to an alumnus that had gone rogue and attempted to put a stranglehold on the corps. That same day I talked with Kent Eversmeyer (1981-1984?) and he informed me that a vote was impending on whether or not to go co-ed and that current members had polled in favor of allowing women into the corps.

cool. as i said i saw yay and nay. if it happened cool. but you can't deny they alienated alumni before the announcement ( and lets be honest, some alumni were unreasonable ######), they fired staff like they were Steinbrenner in the 70's and 80's, and presided over some wildly chaotic roller coaster of in and out of finals. 

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16 hours ago, HockeyDad said:

I had no recollection of them saying that, so I went back to the announcement on DCI.org. Not one word about needing to attract enough members. Lots of other justification ( principles, diversity, non-discrimination) but nothing about - hey, we’re having trouble attracting members. Actually, had they said just that, I think there would have been a lot less pushback. Because the way they’ve packaged it seems very disingenuous to me. 

You are right -- now that I think about it, I realize that I was projecting what I wish they had done instead of what they did --

I want the narrative to be a story about how a group tanked, put it in the ditch, came on hard times and then came to themselves, reached out for help and rose from the ashes and returned with a vengeance to be a contender and prove all the nay sayers wrong -- kind of like a Bad News Bears story but with latin jazz instead....

I'm choosing to believe my narrative over the current story instead - Madison just needs to admit that they were going to fold if they didn't start letting anyone/everyone in and then they come back stronger (and preferably in cool old school uni's) -- do this, follow this narrative - and I think we'll have the feel good story of 2020!

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Bad News Bears but with Latin Jazz. Now THIS is an example of why I participate in the forum. The occasional hilarious gems. 

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A strong come back is a good story, but it does not excuse the false narrative that was conveyed in the announcement

When deception defines the moment, you don't get a free pass to victory. It's most upsetting they thought this would fool anyone, and it disrespected the alumni and their present staff.

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