Cadets 2020

[jonwoody]

9 hours ago, seen-it-all said:

There seems to be much agreement that:

a) this whole 'not paying staff on time' thing is not uncommon in drum corps

and b) that it's an unfortunate thing but it is what it is and it's not that big a deal as long as they follow thru and eventually pay

My question is why is that good enough anymore??

There have been so many ways in which corps have evolved their operations and financial models over the years to try and eliminate the gross mismanagement which has helped lead more corps to extinction that we care to count. One would think that paying your employees on time and for what they are contractually owed would be at or near the top of the list of ways to create a better reputation for yourself as a place where people can trust that they'll be treated right when they go to work there. And when you don't, that's a red flag to maybe think twice about what kind of operation you're getting yourself into, no matter how many championships have been previously won.

I guess what I'm saying is that the days of throwing up your hands and saying, "well that's just the way it is in drum corps" need to go away when it comes to stuff like this. And whether or not this is an excuse people are using in this particular circumstance, this whole episode doesn't make the Cadets look good, that's for sure.  Especially since it was well known before the season started that they were having cash flow problems. And in this day and age, there will soon come a point when the more often it happens, the more it could be (and should be IMO) construed as a warning sign of consistent poor budgetary planning on the part of the admin than anything else. I would like to think that no corps wants that label hung around their necks. 

So in a general sense applying to all corps, don't spend $$$ on what you can't afford. If that means one or two fewer large props on the field or 5-10 fewer staff members (out of what seems like an average of 40 or so per corps these days), then so be it. The best way to serve your members is to stay in existence, and the best way to do that is to budget smartly and pay your bills on time IMO

Maybe DCI needs to put a spending cap on how much corps may spend to put a show on the field. Pro sports do it. Fund raising differs from state to state and we are all aware of some  corps who have more money than they can spend due to those laws. Most corps do not have unlimited income. Those "Rich" corps always have the advantage in staff and touring. While DCI is at it... making corps compete in the same number of shows would help even out the disadvantage. Some corps do not have to compete as much and can rehearse as much as they want since they always have the cash. That is unfair to the majority of corps yet it continues year after year.

[HockeyDad]

2 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

 

I am not "brushing it off" - only pointing things out to those who act as if the Cadets of August 2019 are the ONLY CORPS EVER to fail to pay staff promptly.

 

“Those”. Ok whatever. That’s what people say when they don’t have any actual information to back it up. If this “what about” thinking makes you feel better, fine. But I set the table for you to offer up names of other active corps who are not paying their staff so that we can all see this is more than a Cadets problem. I’m still waiting. Or is this another “some have said” thing?

Edited September 27, 2019 by HockeyDad

[DFA1970]

1 hour ago, jonwoody said:

Maybe DCI needs to put a spending cap on how much corps may spend to put a show on the field. Pro sports do it. Fund raising differs from state to state and we are all aware of some  corps who have more money than they can spend due to those laws. Most corps do not have unlimited income. Those "Rich" corps always have the advantage in staff and touring. While DCI is at it... making corps compete in the same number of shows would help even out the disadvantage. Some corps do not have to compete as much and can rehearse as much as they want since they always have the cash. That is unfair to the majority of corps yet it continues year after year.

Spending cap? no corps are "rich". The are better financed. And nobody is making any profit out of this. You can't compare pro-sports to non-profit organizations. So lets just stop that nonsense that some on here compare DCI to pro sports. One is "pro" for profit and make money. The other is "non pro" Big difference. 

[MikeN]

18 hours ago, FTNK said:

This is a real ###### take. Employees are not volunteers

Again, depending on the locale, techs may not be employees.  (I know you're using the term interchangeably, but rights can vary based on classification.)

Easiest way for (Independent Contractor) staff to protect themselves in the future - make sure they actually have a written agreement, and write in a contract clause that specifies a penalty for late payment past x date.  Obviously I'm not sure how many recent grads will think of that, though.  

Mike

[DFA1970]

2 minutes ago, MikeN said:

Again, depending on the locale, techs may not be employees.  (I know you're using the term interchangeably, but rights can vary based on classification.)

Easiest way for (Independent Contractor) staff to protect themselves in the future - make sure they actually have a written agreement, and write in a contract clause that specifies a penalty for late payment past x date.  Obviously I'm not sure how many recent grads will think of that, though.  

Mike

Every state has a Labor Board that can look into non-payment of salaries regardless of status. Best thing to do is look to see what they can enforce. 

https://www.dli.pa.gov/Individuals/Labor-Management-Relations/plrb/Pages/default.aspx

[OldSnareDrummer]

2 hours ago, DFA1970 said:

Spending cap? no corps are "rich". The are better financed. And nobody is making any profit out of this. You can't compare pro-sports to non-profit organizations. So lets just stop that nonsense that some on here compare DCI to pro sports. One is "pro" for profit and make money. The other is "non pro" Big difference. 

Maybe for a separate thread, but there would be arguments pro and con. I'm sure the drum corps people understand the financial differences between the two entities, but are they all that different in terms of some reasonable level of parity and solvency? Those were some (though certainly not all) of key driving forces behind sports caps, though also arguable is how well each sports' caps have been managed. There are many drum corps fans and "on the edge" corps who might like seeing the Top 12 shift a little more year to year. I think it's worth some discussion, anyway. 

 

As a big NHL fan, I was totally against the incoming cap back in 2004. I'm a free market guy. If your team couldn't generate the revenue to compete at the highest levels, tough cookies. Now, many years later, I firmly believe that cap saved that league from extinction. 

 

[Jeff Ream]

13 hours ago, Tim K said:

Well, if the director was a saint, you’re reward will be in Heaven.

after what I told him when he said he wasnt going to pay, i doubt he'd be there welcoming me

[Jeff Ream]

5 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

The truth hurts, I guess.

Drum corps are, literally, charities.  Like it or not, this is what working for a charity is often like.  Never enough money.  People already underpaid cannot get their under-pay on time because the money simply is not there yet.  Reliance on volunteerism is so high, the employees themselves often donate back to their employer in unpaid overtime, forfeiting part of their wages, or chipping in cash in times of particular need.  And nearly all of those acts occur because people are that dedicated to the mission of the charity.  That is the culture we live in.

For the third time, I do not condone breaking promises/contracts.  But I am not going to pretend it never happens.  And there is no reason to expect it will never happen again, somewhere.

I am not "brushing it off" - only pointing things out to those who act as if the Cadets of August 2019 are the ONLY CORPS EVER to fail to pay staff promptly.

Not being on 2019 Cadets staff, I would not know what kind of working agreements they had with the wide assortment of design staff, caption heads, techs or supplemental supporters, much less how many of them were paid vs. volunteer, what expectations were regarding pay, and whether those expectations were conveyed in writing, verbal agreement, or unwise assumptions.  Some such positions are fee-for-service, while others consider food and housing as per diem compensation and provide little else in actual "pay".  I do not know all these details - do you?

If it was not clear enough from prior posts, then I will use this opportunity to express my gratitude for everyone who contributes to this activity in any way.  Thank you all!

That said, I still stand by my advice that if you literally cannot afford to serve this activity, please take care of your own/family needs first.  Priorities.

post of the month

[Jeff Ream]

3 hours ago, HockeyDad said:

“Those”. Ok whatever. That’s what people say when they don’t have any actual information to back it up. If this “what about” thinking makes you feel better, fine. But I set the table for you to offer up names of other active corps who are not paying their staff so that we can all see this is more than a Cadets problem. I’m still waiting. Or is this another “some have said” thing?

given i have seen other corps called out in other places for this same thing, I truly hope you're as hard ### to them as well.

[DFA1970]

1 hour ago, OldSnareDrummer said:

Maybe for a separate thread, but there would be arguments pro and con. I'm sure the drum corps people understand the financial differences between the two entities, but are they all that different in terms of some reasonable level of parity and solvency? Those were some (though certainly not all) of key driving forces behind sports caps, though also arguable is how well each sports' caps have been managed. There are many drum corps fans and "on the edge" corps who might like seeing the Top 12 shift a little more year to year. I think it's worth some discussion, anyway. 

 

As a big NHL fan, I was totally against the incoming cap back in 2004. I'm a free market guy. If your team couldn't generate the revenue to compete at the highest levels, tough cookies. Now, many years later, I firmly believe that cap saved that league from extinction. 

 

You’re still comparing profession organizations like NHL to Drumcorp. It’s just not the same. So let’s bring down successful organizations like BD, Crown. Coats and SCV to a even level . That’s insane. Corps fold in the past for various financial reasons but let’s not punish those who manage successfully.