JFitz19

Evolution in Guard Judging?

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23 hours ago, xandandl said:

You have proven my point exactly why there must be more than one guard judge.  While all captions/judging including tick execution includes a subjective element, guard evaluation when evaluating performance (compared to execution) is strictly subjective.  No one judge's feelings should determine outcome. Have two, add both, divide by two.

I don't think it is a terrible idea to have guard judge in the booth and another on the field or at field level. 

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On 8/16/2019 at 11:44 AM, xandandl said:

You have proven my point exactly why there must be more than one guard judge.  While all captions/judging including tick execution includes a subjective element, guard evaluation when evaluating performance (compared to execution) is strictly subjective.  No one judge's feelings should determine outcome. Have two, add both, divide by two.

x,

Thank you for your commentaries throughout these forums on judging.  Your comments above triggered these thoughts.

What other captions or subcaptions besides Guard lend themselves to a strictly subjective evaluation of performance/content?

Has the DCI judging community ever considered having separate judges for Content and Achievement sub-captions?

For example, in the GE caption, have 1 of the 2 GE 1 judges assess only Content and the other only Achievement.

 

Edited by 1956OPR
clarification

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On 8/16/2019 at 2:44 PM, xandandl said:

You have proven my point exactly why there must be more than one guard judge.  While all captions/judging including tick execution includes a subjective element, guard evaluation when evaluating performance (compared to execution) is strictly subjective.  No one judge's feelings should determine outcome. Have two, add both, divide by two.

Have you heard a good WGI equipment tape?  It's as close to analytical, objective guard judging as I've ever heard.  That's why I think the issue is the sheet not the number of judges.  There are enough GREAT EQ/MVT judges out there to judge the caption without all the subjective (design) commentary inherent in today's sheet. There are more than enough voices chatting about show design already!   Clean up the sheet and you clean up the caption.  Just sayin'.

Edited by karuna

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13 hours ago, karuna said:

Have you heard a good WGI equipment tape?  It's as close to analytical, objective guard judging as I've ever heard.  That's why I think the issue is the sheet not the number of judges.  There are enough GREAT EQ/MVT judges out there to judge the caption without all the subjective (design) commentary inherent in today's sheet. There are more than enough voices chatting about show design already!   Clean up the sheet and you clean up the caption.  Just sayin'.

I helped write those WGI sheets back in my day. But I agree the DCI sheet needs to be changed completely with much of what you say as part of the re-write. But two judges are needed. DCI guards are twice the size of WGI guards minimally.

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16 hours ago, 1956OPR said:

x,

Thank you for your commentaries throughout these forums on judging.  Your comments above triggered these thoughts.

What other captions or subcaptions besides Guard lend themselves to a strictly subjective evaluation of performance/content?

Has the DCI judging community ever considered having separate judges for Content and Achievement sub-captions?

For example, in the GE caption, have 1 of the 2 GE 1 judges assess only Content and the other only Achievement.

 

I like your point.

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5 hours ago, xandandl said:

I helped write those WGI sheets back in my day. But I agree the DCI sheet needs to be changed completely with much of what you say as part of the re-write. But two judges are needed. DCI guards are twice the size of WGI guards minimally.

Which one of these are you huh? 

Don Angelica, Shirlee Whitcomb, Stanley Knaub, Bryan Johnston, Marie Czapinski, and Linda Chambers?  https://wgi.org/history/ 

Do we have a Legend amongst our ranks??? hmm?? 

 

(In jest) but seriously kudos to being around to form the activity into what it is today... watching finals now must stir up some emotions for you, Good or bad, still would be proud to lay the groundwork for the activity many years down the line. 

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5 minutes ago, Glenn426 said:

Which one of these are you huh? 

Don Angelica, Shirlee Whitcomb, Stanley Knaub, Bryan Johnston, Marie Czapinski, and Linda Chambers?  https://wgi.org/history/ 

Do we have a Legend amongst our ranks??? hmm?? 

 

(In jest) but seriously kudos to being around to form the activity into what it is today... watching finals now must stir up some emotions for you, Good or bad, still would be proud to lay the groundwork for the activity many years down the line. 

None of the above. I had semester exams at the time and participated in the sessions that were held on the East in person by arranging the use of my college meeting rooms and by telephone when the meetings were out West. The official history starts only after with the West Coast meetings. My involvement was due on four factors: I have eight siblings (born over ten years) and we went to college wherever in the country the scholarships were offered; visiting my family at their schools, I was in a unique position to have first hand awareness of what other circuits were doing in those days before videos, internet and skype.  I was an instructor of two strong guards at the time competing in two different circuits; I had arranged for two pre-WGI winter guard contests whose rules allowed corps from any circuit to participate (we had dropped the requirement of the manual of arms or posting of colors or 3 mandatory fronts of 16 steps each;) and what was most miraculous, I had gotten the circuits to allow judges from several areas of the country to judge at the same contest rather than all judges being from Metro AA, National Judges, Mass. Judges, or Central States solely.  Two of the "outside" judges received their first experiences judging "nationally" in those two contests. The local L.I. Catholic Diocese paid for the judging fees including transportation, board and housing out of the Diocesan CYO budget; ask Joe Nee about his experience of being housed in a seminary "cell."  [Previously out of area winter guards traveled and appeared at indoor color guard contests merely in exhibition and without announced scores as when the Hawthorne, N.J. Muchachos appeared in Boston, Mass. and Bruce Leo's St. Anthony's Imperials appeared at Gate of Heaven Ambassadors' show in Ozone Park, Queens, NYC.) Another pivotal name in the process who does not get the credit he is due is F. George Walsh, III. 

At my own request and with the cooperation of my friend George and Lindstrom, an early WGI CEO, my name does not appear in the official wgi.org history as I don't appear in any of the photos taken of those meetings and disagreed with much of the after-hours behavior of several of those founders, several who separated themselves or were separated from WGI eventually. That's all I will say.  Legends are sometimes myths and often times deal only with the dead.  I am not dead...yet.

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15 hours ago, xandandl said:

None of the above. I had semester exams at the time and participated in the sessions that were held on the East in person by arranging the use of my college meeting rooms and by telephone when the meetings were out West. The official history starts only after with the West Coast meetings. My involvement was due on four factors: I have eight siblings (born over ten years) and we went to college wherever in the country the scholarships were offered; visiting my family at their schools, I was in a unique position to have first hand awareness of what other circuits were doing in those days before videos, internet and skype.  I was an instructor of two strong guards at the time competing in two different circuits; I had arranged for two pre-WGI winter guard contests whose rules allowed corps from any circuit to participate (we had dropped the requirement of the manual of arms or posting of colors or 3 mandatory fronts of 16 steps each;) and what was most miraculous, I had gotten the circuits to allow judges from several areas of the country to judge at the same contest rather than all judges being from Metro AA, National Judges, Mass. Judges, or Central States solely.  Two of the "outside" judges received their first experiences judging "nationally" in those two contests. The local L.I. Catholic Diocese paid for the judging fees including transportation, board and housing out of the Diocesan CYO budget; ask Joe Nee about his experience of being housed in a seminary "cell."  [Previously out of area winter guards traveled and appeared at indoor color guard contests merely in exhibition and without announced scores as when the Hawthorne, N.J. Muchachos appeared in Boston, Mass. and Bruce Leo's St. Anthony's Imperials appeared at Gate of Heaven Ambassadors' show in Ozone Park, Queens, NYC.) Another pivotal name in the process who does not get the credit he is due is F. George Walsh, III. 

At my own request and with the cooperation of my friend George and Lindstrom, an early WGI CEO, my name does not appear in the official wgi.org history as I don't appear in any of the photos taken of those meetings and disagreed with much of the after-hours behavior of several of those founders, several who separated themselves or were separated from WGI eventually. That's all I will say.  Legends are sometimes myths and often times deal only with the dead.  I am not dead...yet.

Thank you for the Insight, And in Knowing your background I can apply the appropriate weight to the comments you have and your unique perspective.. Having recently moved to Canada from South Florida, There is no Indoor CG Circuit in Southern Ontario.. The few groups that exist here, make a weekly trip to NorthWest NY to participate in a local circuit in between the WGI Regionals.. 

MY Wife and I came from such an amazing circuit (SFWGA) that lately my interest in how things got started for WGI or any of these other staples in our Activity pique my interest.. 

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On 8/19/2019 at 7:13 AM, xandandl said:

I helped write those WGI sheets back in my day. But I agree the DCI sheet needs to be changed completely with much of what you say as part of the re-write. But two judges are needed. DCI guards are twice the size of WGI guards minimally.

Twice the size, and in a very different environment. I agree, two judges are needed as one can judge technical proficiency from field level, and the other can judge the overall look the guard brings to the show(GE?)

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4 hours ago, deftguy said:

Twice the size, and in a very different environment. I agree, two judges are needed as one can judge technical proficiency from field level, and the other can judge the overall look the guard brings to the show(GE?)

Aren’t two (four at finals) GE judges enough?!?!  This is exactly why the caption is a mess.  Focus the caption on the performers.  They deserve it.  

 

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