xandandl Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, cixelsyd said: ... If it were that simple, then why did the 1933 American Legion final draw 40,000 fans? Was "the quality of what was put on the field" nearly twice as good as what we have now? ... 1. no TV; people listened to radio to distract/entertain them. (no cell phones or computers either.) 2. no air-conditioning for the common masses 3. patriotism was high and crowd seeking cheap entertainment as nation was just coming out of throes of The Great Depression which was not fully overcome until WWII (check any history or economics faculty at any institution of higher learning.) 4. Montreal and Buffalo crowds have been the largest for DCI era; density of population in the Northeast may be a factor as well. Edited August 30, 2019 by xandandl 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 3 hours ago, Slingerland said: In other words, you're acknowledging that certain corps have more market value than others and that placement is a determining factor, which is exactly the opposite of your earliest opinion on the matter. So if some corps have more market value than others, and yet they still agree to perform for fees that are below their market value, they are, in point of fact, subsidizing the other corps and DCI by agreeing to perform for less than their value. Glad we agree. Cute. But as you are probably aware, ever since my first response to you, I have been putting "market value" in quotes because (like I said back then)... On 8/23/2019 at 1:44 PM, cixelsyd said: None of these individual corps have a substantiated "market value". No one would know or care who the Blue Devils are (if they still existed), or any other DCI corps, without DCI. What you mistakely call "market value" is almost entirely built from performances and competitive achievements that would never have occurred had DCI not created/maintained the league, provided the venues, and drawn this many corps together for contests of their scale, from which the better corps built their resumes. Evidently, you either: cannot understand this concept, or choose not to acknowledge it Either way, you continue to recite the G7 script. You exaggerate competitive inertia to make the spurious claim that the current seven six five corps are the permanent "top corps", changing the number as needed to best evade conflicts with reality. Then you conflate that with ordinary transient interest in the top of the scoresheet to claim these permanent "top corps" have some sort of permanent, mythical "market value", which no one ever quantifies. Whatever it is, though, it must be more than they are getting paid now because next is the baseless grievance that these corps are underpaid, "subsidizing" the other corps, and related mischaracterizations. All that remains after that is the demand for more money, under the threat that these "top corps" will leave DCI... despite the obvious logical fallacy that as soon as they do so, there will no longer be all-inclusive contests to determine who is the "top corps" anymore. All this so-called "market value" is predicated on the "top corps" claim. Without that, the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slingerland Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, cixelsyd said: All this so-called "market value" is predicated on the "top corps" claim. Yes, it is. Some corps consistently finish in the top six or seven, everyone else does not. Those who finish in the top six or seven consistently are more desirable to show sponsors than those who don't. Prove the thesis wrong by promoting a show with no top six finishers and see how you do compared to a TOC show. So no houses will come tumbling, because anyone who isn't a fool will recognize that the entertainment world has headliners and opening acts. Drum corps is no different, except that the headliners agree to be paid at the same scale as the opening acts, which doesn't happen anywhere else. Edited August 30, 2019 by Slingerland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 4 hours ago, MikeRapp said: Placements change so little that you can hardly even call it change. And yet look how much of the talk on here was about every last little placement change, or possibility thereof. Quote I would be willing to bet my house and all It’s contents that no corps outside the 2019 top six will medal in 2020. Not exactly a bold prediction. Last time it happened was 1993. Quote Bottom line is, at the end of the day, both the corps and DCI need each other Now you are talking sense! Quote —but DCI needs the corps more than the opposite. Well, that was short-lived. Quote And if you removed the top six from the 2020 tour, attendance would plummet and likely never return no matter how good the “competition” was. That depends on the circumstances. If they pulled out in June, and ran their own tour in direct, show-for-show competition with DCI, that would split attendance in the near-term. If the six corps ceased operations now, and all their membership, staff, design and administrative people went to other existing or new DCI corps in the fall, I am not convinced that would affect attendance at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Slingerland said: So no houses will come tumbling, because anyone who isn't a fool will recognize that the entertainment world has headliners and opening acts. Drum corps is no different, except that the headliners agree to be paid at the same scale as the opening acts, which doesn't happen anywhere else. We know that is false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, xandandl said: 1. no TV; people listened to radio to distract/entertain them. (no cell phones or computers either.) 2. no air-conditioning for the common masses 3. patriotism was high and crowd seeking cheap entertainment as nation was just coming out of throes of The Great Depression which was not fully overcome until WWII (check any history or economics faculty at any institution of higher learning.) 4. Montreal and Buffalo crowds have been the largest for DCI era; density of population in the Northeast may be a factor as well. Point being missed is American Legion Nationals was part of the convention so majority of people in stands were attendees of the convention. And the conventions had tens of thousands of attendees. Should have seen the mob in New Orleans in 1978. Two Sr corps and 7 Jrs. Winners Westshoremen (9th at DCA) and LI Kingsmen (not a finalist at DCI) And believe one AL Nationals in Miami had 60k but can’t find my notes. Location location location Edited August 31, 2019 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 15 hours ago, cixelsyd said: So the same team is a draw when winning, but is not a draw when losing? Their market value is predicated on their current competitive standing. Shocking! exactly. And MLB doesn't give more power to the teams winning like the G7 wanted to do. But denying those at the top don't draw is folly 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 15 hours ago, MikeRapp said: The rules of DCI are such that there will be almost no change in the relative placements of the members from year to year. can you point to the section of the DCI rulebook or bylaws that state this? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRapp Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 11 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: can you point to the section of the DCI rulebook or bylaws that state this? The very nature of dci ensures that there will be almost no change in the power rankings year to year. The richest corps remain so by being able to recruit away the most experienced members from second tier corps. This ensures that they will be able to remain top tier and therefore pay the best educators more money...and the cycle continues. Mandarins remains the lone outlier so far, but they have no realistic chance of medaling in the next three years imo. Might even say five. It seems there are two ways to break this mold: have your corps director be revealed as a fraud and habitual abuser; and/or pay a #### ton of money to a tier one corps caption leaders and have them bring their best students with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeN Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 On 8/29/2019 at 10:50 AM, cybersnyder said: I've been thinking about the topic of evolving the business model and I'm wondering if there really is much to cut on the expense side other than making tours shorter. And is there really a need to cut costs? There doesn't seem to be a shortage of people signing contracts for the season. In my opinion, GoFundMe has made higher costs more palatable. You may not raise enough from family and friends to pay the entire year, but you can get enough to bring it back down to reasonable levels. So I was thinking that the evolution needs to happen on the fundraising side, but maybe, via GoFundMe, that evolution has already happened. The best way to raise money is to ask for it. I would be more willing to give Becky $100 who is going to Blue Devils than to send $100 directly to Blue Devils. This year, from firsthand experience - - there was a shortage of marching members all around, from Open Class all the way up to finalists. - very few marching members (proportionally) made any significant inroads with GoFundMe accounts - you're right, though, the tour is the biggest cost. Buses, gas, staff and food. Anything you can do to reduce those will cause tangible savings to all corps. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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