Time to Say Goodbye, after 15 years

[cfirwin3]

Just now, cixelsyd said:

But there are systemic organizational flaws.

The very same competition that draws us to drum corps, also drives the competitors to live way beyond their means.  They charge admission to the marchers, not just the audience... and still, they operate at deficits so large that massive donations (and/or gambling revenue) are required to make up the shortfall.  That is the nature of the beast.  Despite that, we used to have many hundreds of such beasts, but now we have less than 50 because the cost to operate a competitive corps is so staggeringly high.

That's not an example of systemic organizational flaws.  That's how non-profit educational performing groups work when they are working correctly.  That's the daily grind.  For example, the Bluecoats really started functioning properly when they got Bingo going.  Bingo wasn't a sign of organizational weakness.  It was a symbol of organizational leadership and strength.

We have less than 50 corps today because people aren't that interested in drumcorps as it is, was or ever could be.  It lacks a cultural relevance (that used to be more common).  Just look at scholastic marching programs now in comparison to the 80's and 90's.  They aren't fewer because young people were failed in some way.  They are fewer because culture has changed and various other passtimes are more engaging to more people.

It's okay to have 50 of these groups for the people that 1. Want to see it and pay to see it, and 2. for the people that want to do it and pay to do it.  There's nothing wrong with people not digging drumcorps.

[cixelsyd]

5 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

All activities struggle to cope with cost.  That's just budgeting.

I struggle to cope with cost every time that I look at my gas gauge and peer down the street at the various gas station signage.  Unless I get to a place where I can't afford to drive a car... I'm going to continue buying gas and complaining about the cost while I pump it.

Really?  Do you need to assemble a BOD, apply for and obtain 501(c)3 status, and run several fundraising programs to buy gas for your car?

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None of these member corps are complaining about using electronics.

What... is that supposed to prove something?

A corps director complaining about the cost of competing would essentially be throwing a bucket of chum into the shark-infested waters in which they swim.

[JimF-LowBari]

6 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

That's not an example of systemic organizational flaws.  That's how non-profit educational performing groups work when they are working correctly.  That's the daily grind. 

You responded to “competitors to live beyond their means” with “working correctly”?

[cfirwin3]

Just now, cixelsyd said:

Really?  Do you need to assemble a BOD, apply for and obtain 501(c)3 status, and run several fundraising programs to buy gas for your car?

What... is that supposed to prove something?

A corps director complaining about the cost of competing would essentially be throwing a bucket of chum into the shark-infested waters in which they swim.

Sorry I was unable to convey the realities of all budgeting to you through my microcosmic analogy.

By your accounting of corps directors (which I think is inaccurate), it is then impossible to alter your view with facts.  It is a fact that no drumcorps are complaining about a perceived requirement for electronics and the cost of those items.  Drumcorps fans on the other hand... some of them are complaining plenty and will continue to do so.

[cfirwin3]

Just now, JimF-LowBari said:

You responded to “competitors to live beyond their means” with “working correctly”?

That's how they live by their means.

Good now?

He is positing that there is a massive deficit prior to bingo.  But that's not true.  With these organizations the only deficit is the one that you have after bingo.

Edit:

I looked back at the discussion.  And I think I had it worded exactly right.  The assertion is that having to do the fundraising and fee charging that non-profits do is a demonstration of poor operation (living beyond one's means).  But that assertion seems to pretend that a non-profit's normal fundraising activity is bad practice by virtue of what it is.  These organizations are solvent when their fundraising activity comes due.

Edited December 6, 2019 by cfirwin3

[cixelsyd]

6 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

That's not an example of systemic organizational flaws.  That's how non-profit educational performing groups work when they are working correctly.  That's the daily grind.  For example, the Bluecoats really started functioning properly when they got Bingo going.  Bingo wasn't a sign of organizational weakness.  It was a symbol of organizational leadership and strength.

Controlling costs, like raising revenues, is also a trait of organizational leadership and strength.

Quote

We have less than 50 corps today because people aren't that interested in drumcorps as it is, was or ever could be.  It lacks a cultural relevance (that used to be more common).  

The idea of refusing to use your arms (i.e. soccer) lost its cultural relevance back when our species learned to walk on two legs.  Yet there are more than 50 soccer teams in my town.

[cfirwin3]

Just now, cixelsyd said:

Controlling costs, like raising revenues, is also a trait of organizational leadership and strength.

The idea of refusing to use your arms (i.e. soccer) lost its cultural relevance back when our species learned to walk on two legs.  Yet there are more than 50 soccer teams in my town.

I don't disagree with you one bit.  But there are consequences to a lack of cost control that isn't being demonstrated in most drumcorps programs... therefore the cost controls seem to be pretty okay right now.  Again, none of the corps are complaining about electronics.

I personally can't stand soccer.  That's all I have to say about that.

[Tim K]

8 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

 

We have less than 50 corps today because people aren't that interested in drumcorps as it is, was or ever could be.  It lacks a cultural relevance (that used to be more common).  Just look at scholastic marching programs now in comparison to the 80's and 90's.  They aren't fewer because young people were failed in some way.  They are fewer because culture has changed and various other passtimes are more engaging to more people.

 

You make an important point here. I knew some of the people who started some of the drum corps, bands, and drill teams in the Boston area, some affiliated with churches, others independent. In the early days all were formed to be a catch all activity that could include a wide variety of kids. Many were in city neighborhoods and you got into the “keeping kids off the streets” aspect. Drum corps in general did not survive the city to suburbs move, but suburbs often had more activities to offer.

Drum corps has evolved into an elite organization that focuses more on talent than keeping kids involved in a worthwhile activity,  and I’m happy we do have the corps we do. What does surprise me a bit is that there are not more corps from many of the places where the band activity does so well, especially where booster organizations often pay for the props, additional instructors, show designers, etc. 

[JimF-LowBari]

15 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

That's how they live by their means.

Good now?

He is positing that there is a massive deficit prior to bingo.  But that's not true.  With these organizations the only deficit is the one that you have after bingo.

How do they live by their means as that was not covered as I read it.

BTW Bingo is a horrible way to expect to raise long term funding. One change of state/local laws or a big organization moving in with better payouts and the income goes down the toilet. Seen it in my area for many organizations 

Does Ohio bingo still allow smoking anywhere in the hall?

Edited December 6, 2019 by JimF-LowBari

[cfirwin3]

Just now, Tim K said:

You make an important point here. I knew some of the people who started some of the drum corps, bands, and drill teams in the Boston area, some affiliated with churches, others independent. In the early days all were formed to be a catch all activity that could include a wide variety of kids. Many were in city neighborhoods and you got into the “keeping kids off the streets” aspect. Drum corps in general did not survive the city to suburbs move, but suburbs often had more activities to offer.

Drum corps has evolved into an elite organization that focuses more on talent than keeping kids involved in a worthwhile activity,  and I’m happy we do have the corps we do. What does surprise me a bit is that there are not more corps from many of the places where the band activity does so well, especially where booster organizations often pay for the props, additional instructors, show designers, etc. 

In New York State, the DCI calendar is completely incompatible with the scholastic calendar.  Our regents testing concludes at the end of the last full week of June.  When you look at the few competitive field band programs in New York State, you will have a hard time finding students that march DCI from those schools for this reason alone.

Another truth is that DCI is a little older now on average than it used to be.  Scholastic marching programs just don't have a local/regional influence that they used to because the corps member are coming in from collegiate programs all over the place.