Time to Say Goodbye, after 15 years

[MikeD]

2 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

That is stretching it, in several ways.

1.  If by "most", you mean slightly over 50%, you may be correct.  I hope you are not implying we should ignore the other 49%.

2.  Before those things you mention, we still had the percussion arms race, the first three of the five total brass choir replacements, and expanded travel.

3.  Like most things, "modern rolling stock" worked its way into the activity as an "option" that eventually became "necessary".  You could stow 1970s instrumentation in the storage compartments of buses, but many DCI member corps had developed a full eighteen-wheeler equipment/uniform trailer by the time the pit rule was passed in the early 1980s.  So they were immediately able to pile on full concert marimbas and racks of assorted pit percussion that would not fit in bus storage.  Just one of countless examples of how the top 10-25 corps passed rules that had "unintended consequences" for the other 400 corps... make that 300... no, wait, 200... 100... 

More than 50% of the total were gone by the end of the 80's. My marching career was 64-72, taught in the Garden State Circuit mid-70's and judged mid-70's to early 80's in the GSC. The circuit was thriving when I marched in it 68-69. By the mid 70's corps were merging with other corps just to remain afloat for another year or two and by the mid 80's the GSC was a shadow of its forner self struggling  to stay alive. Many GSC shows had zero audience, with a few lucky ones attached to a community event having decent crowds, especially by the late 70's into the 80's.

Corps at ALL levels were dying out as sponsors like the Catholic Church and Veteran organizations pulled away, starting before DCI came along. Class "A" corps in my area like St Joe's from Newark, St Lucy's, St Vinnie's in my area alone never made it to the DCI era, and BS limped into that era in 72 as they moved to Union their final season, when the church pulled away from them, just to name a few close to me. Smaller corps died out throughout the 60's and 70's, and into the 80's, having little or nothing to do with DCI. 

As others have mentioned, the rise of the corps-style marching bands played a large roll in the demise of the local corps. Why spend a summer NOT making much money when you could march and compete in your HS Band, taught and judged by drum corps people? Especially with a lousy economy and huge inflation of the later 70's. In NJ, circuits like TOB and later EMBA were run by judging associations that saw the corps market drying up. 

These corps failures were not caused by touring, instruments, etc, as you mention. They were victims of changing times.

[xandandl]

1 minute ago, MikeD said:

More than 50% of the total were gone by the end of the 80's. My marching career was 64-72, taught in the Garden State Circuit mid-70's and judged mid-70's to early 80's in the GSC. The circuit was thriving when I marched in it 68-69. By the mid 70's corps were merging with other corps just to remain afloat for another year or two and by the mid 80's the GSC was a shadow of its forner self struggling  to stay alive. Many GSC shows had zero audience, with a few lucky ones attached to a community event having decent crowds, especially by the late 70's into the 80's.

Corps at ALL levels were dying out as sponsors like the Catholic Church and Veteran organizations pulled away, starting before DCI came along. Class "A" corps in my area like St Joe's from Newark, St Lucy's, St Vinnie's in my area alone never made it to the DCI era, and BS limped into that era in 72 as they moved to Union their final season, when the church pulled away from them, just to name a few close to me. Smaller corps died out throughout the 60's and 70's, and into the 80's, having little or nothing to do with DCI. 

As others have mentioned, the rise of the corps-style marching bands played a large roll in the demise of the local corps. Why spend a summer NOT making much money when you could march and compete in your HS Band, taught and judged by drum corps people? Especially with a lousy economy and huge inflation of the later 70's. In NJ, circuits like TOB and later EMBA were run by judging associations that saw the corps market drying up. 

These corps failures were not caused by touring, instruments, etc, as you mention. They were victims of changing times.

compare with the shift in teenage demographics in the Northeast (from the cities to the suburbs) and then retiring parents moving to Florida and South during that same mid-sixties to late 80's time frame. Also compare the shifting demographics post-Viet Nam and Vatican II for sponsoring Vet groups and churches (not just Catholic.)

[Fran Haring]

16 minutes ago, JimF-LowBari said:

Lol even older flashback of my grandfather’s garage with “cheapest gas in town .29” sign.

of course it was “Pioneer” gas so you probably got what you paid for...😲

I remember my mom not being happy when service stations stopped giving out Green Stamps with a fillup.

[MikeD]

9 minutes ago, xandandl said:

compare with the shift in teenage demographics in the Northeast (from the cities to the suburbs) and then retiring parents moving to Florida and South during that same mid-sixties to late 80's time frame. Also compare the shifting demographics post-Viet Nam and Vatican II for sponsoring Vet groups and churches (not just Catholic.)

Yup. That is part of what I was thinking of in mentioning societal changes of that timeframe. 

VFW and AL post memberships were primarily WWII and to some extent Korean conflict vets. Their kids made up a good chunk of the small local VFW/AL corps. The kids got older, as did the post members. Those organizations were really hurting for members, so corps they sponsored were folded or cut loose.  

The Viet Nam returning vets were treated very poorly by society, and many just kept their service hidden and did not join posts. Those organizations are suffering to this day.   

[JimF-LowBari]

13 minutes ago, MikeD said:

Yup. That is part of what I was thinking of in mentioning societal changes of that timeframe. 

VFW and AL post memberships were primarily WWII and to some extent Korean conflict vets. Their kids made up a good chunk of the small local VFW/AL corps. The kids got older, as did the post members. Those organizations were really hurting for members, so corps they sponsored were folded or cut loose.  

The Viet Nam returning vets were treated very poorly by society, and many just kept their service hidden and did not join posts. Those organizations are suffering to this day.   

What I heard too except Korea vets not totally welcome unless they were also WWII vets. After all US didn’t “win” that war either. And VietNam vets were even more looked down on. Source: some of those vets I know and talked to.

Edited December 9, 2019 by JimF-LowBari

[Fran Haring]

42 minutes ago, MikeD said:

Yup. That is part of what I was thinking of in mentioning societal changes of that timeframe. 

VFW and AL post memberships were primarily WWII and to some extent Korean conflict vets. Their kids made up a good chunk of the small local VFW/AL corps. The kids got older, as did the post members. Those organizations were really hurting for members, so corps they sponsored were folded or cut loose.  

 

And a reason why senior corps came into prominence after World War II.

A number of teenagers... junior-corps members... who had served during the war returned home as 20-something young adults, too old for junior corps.

As a result, numerous senior corps... Hawthorne Caballeros, NY Skyliners, Reilly Raiders, Yankee Rebels, among others... arrived on the scene.

 

[cixelsyd]

24 minutes ago, MikeD said:

More than 50% of the total were gone by the end of the 80's. My marching career was 64-72, taught in the Garden State Circuit mid-70's and judged mid-70's to early 80's in the GSC. The circuit was thriving when I marched in it 68-69. By the mid 70's corps were merging with other corps just to remain afloat for another year or two and by the mid 80's the GSC was a shadow of its forner self struggling  to stay alive. Many GSC shows had zero audience, with a few lucky ones attached to a community event having decent crowds, especially by the late 70's into the 80's.

Corps at ALL levels were dying out as sponsors like the Catholic Church and Veteran organizations pulled away, starting before DCI came along. Class "A" corps in my area like St Joe's from Newark, St Lucy's, St Vinnie's in my area alone never made it to the DCI era, and BS limped into that era in 72 as they moved to Union their final season, when the church pulled away from them, just to name a few close to me. Smaller corps died out throughout the 60's and 70's, and into the 80's, having little or nothing to do with DCI. 

I love the "us vs. them" spin you put on all of drum corps history.  Sponsors "pulled away" from drum corps.  Oh, those evil sponsors!

To be fair, there has been quite a bit of drum corps pulling away from sponsors.

Numerous drum corps programs were formed/sponsored by churches, veterans posts and other civic organizations, to serve the youth of their constituency with an inspiring, character-building, yet practical program.  Corps programs like these often operated for many successful years.  And all through the decades, many of them ceased operating, or parted ways with their original sponsor, even after having been successful.  Not all were for the same reasons, of course.  But one common issue was "mission creep".  Over time, some corps pursued their competitive ambitions by recruiting members outside of their sponsoring constituency.  Senior corps recruited members outside of their sponsoring civic/veterans organization.  Junior corps recruited kids from outside of the church, out of town, or out of area.  Another competitive ambition was to pursue higher honors than those available within the practical travel range of the sponsor.  Regional, national or international competition may never have been the intention of the sponsor.

Growth of the corps program beyond the sponsoring mission often severed the relationship between sponsor and corps.  In other cases, it simply meant that the corps grew to develop additional means of funding and administration, supplementing those of the sponsor.  You need to ask who was pulling away from whom in each of those cases.

Quote

These corps failures were not caused by touring, instruments, etc, as you mention. They were victims of changing times.

If this is not a teachable moment, what is?

Your own corps caused its dissolution/reorganization precisely because of their "touring" (as it was in 1950s terms).  The Holy Name Cadets were happily sponsored by the church of that name for many highly competitive and well traveled years.  But in 1958, the church had some infrastructure to take care of, and expected their corps program to understand that it was their turn to cut back on travel, and pitch in.  The corps not only refused... they kept on traveling, raising funds for their trips by competing with their own church for the charitable attention of their community.  The corps knew they were going to cross a line that would cause dissolution of the "Holy Name Cadets"... and they crossed it.  So who pulled away from whom?

[JimF-LowBari]

7 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:

I love the "us vs. them" spin you put on all of drum corps history.  Sponsors "pulled away" from drum corps.  Oh, those evil sponsors!

To be fair, there has been quite a bit of drum corps pulling away from sponsors.

Numerous drum corps programs were formed/sponsored by churches, veterans posts and other civic organizations, to serve the youth of their constituency with an inspiring, character-building, yet practical program.  Corps programs like these often operated for many successful years.  And all through the decades, many of them ceased operating, or parted ways with their original sponsor, even after having been successful.  Not all were for the same reasons, of course.  But one common issue was "mission creep".  Over time, some corps pursued their competitive ambitions by recruiting members outside of their sponsoring constituency.  Senior corps recruited members outside of their sponsoring civic/veterans organization.  Junior corps recruited kids from outside of the church, out of town, or out of area.  Another competitive ambition was to pursue higher honors than those available within the practical travel range of the sponsor.  Regional, national or international competition may never have been the intention of the sponsor.

Growth of the corps program beyond the sponsoring mission often severed the relationship between sponsor and corps.  In other cases, it simply meant that the corps grew to develop additional means of funding and administration, supplementing those of the sponsor.  You need to ask who was pulling away from whom in each of those cases.

Reading History of Drum Corps Volume 2 (mostly history of few dozen top corps) it was both. Just depends which corps you are looking at. But problem with HoDCV2 is nothing about the local corps that hardly made a blip on the radar. Unless you live in the area or know a Corps alumni or one yourself the story for the disbanding is lost

[MikeD]

5 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

I love the "us vs. them" spin you put on all of drum corps history.  Sponsors "pulled away" from drum corps.  Oh, those evil sponsors!

To be fair, there has been quite a bit of drum corps pulling away from sponsors.

Numerous drum corps programs were formed/sponsored by churches, veterans posts and other civic organizations, to serve the youth of their constituency with an inspiring, character-building, yet practical program.  Corps programs like these often operated for many successful years.  And all through the decades, many of them ceased operating, or parted ways with their original sponsor, even after having been successful.  Not all were for the same reasons, of course.  But one common issue was "mission creep".  Over time, some corps pursued their competitive ambitions by recruiting members outside of their sponsoring constituency.  Senior corps recruited members outside of their sponsoring civic/veterans organization.  Junior corps recruited kids from outside of the church, out of town, or out of area.  Another competitive ambition was to pursue higher honors than those available within the practical travel range of the sponsor.  Regional, national or international competition may never have been the intention of the sponsor.

Growth of the corps program beyond the sponsoring mission often severed the relationship between sponsor and corps.  In other cases, it simply meant that the corps grew to develop additional means of funding and administration, supplementing those of the sponsor.  You need to ask who was pulling away from whom in each of those cases.

If this is not a teachable moment, what is?

Your own corps caused its dissolution/reorganization precisely because of their "touring" (as it was in 1950s terms).  The Holy Name Cadets were happily sponsored by the church of that name for many highly competitive and well traveled years.  But in 1958, the church had some infrastructure to take care of, and expected their corps program to understand that it was their turn to cut back on travel, and pitch in.  The corps not only refused... they kept on traveling, raising funds for their trips by competing with their own church for the charitable attention of their community.  The corps knew they were going to cross a line that would cause dissolution of the "Holy Name Cadets"... and they crossed it.  So who pulled away from whom?

No, not "us vs them". The sponsors were not evil;. Times changed. That's all. Posts and churches that sponsored corps at every level  were pulling back. You place the blame on the corps, most of them small local corps. I don't "blame" anybody as you look to do. It was just how time evolved. 

The Cadets story is hardly as you describe it, but believe what you wish. You can put whatever spin you want on it. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by MikeD

[garfield]

4 hours ago, KeithHall said:

I guess it wouldn't be a good idea to suggest going to a 2 small tour season to save money. Probably not enough corps to fill in shows already on schedule from year to year.

Correct.  That horse is already out of the barn and galloping across the neighbor's field.