Ray Kimber

Time to Say Goodbye, after 15 years

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2 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

A few pages back, several enlightened posters who have followed the activity for decades pointed out that drum corps of the 1960s had this attitude of superiority to, and derision toward, marching band.  The word bigotry comes to mind.  

You are not the first to suggest that corps = band + excellence.  I just wonder why no one points out the very same bigotry involved in that thought.

In a few weeks there will be videos from the BOA Grand National Championship with people wondering whether we will see some prop, gimmick, or death defying stunt on the drum corps field. I think they will believe, and rightly so, that Broken Arrow=Band + Excellence, or replace Broken Arrow with  Marian Catholic, or Avon HS, etc. 

You mention the 1960’s as a time when drum corps had a superior attitude towards bands, and I would argue this was the case until the mid 80’s when you saw fewer and fewer feeder corps. When BOA and other circuits formed, and high school programs had similar scoring sheets to drum corps with drum corps judges scoring competitions with drum corps instructors designing shows, things got very heated. I think at times that drum corps takes for granted what high school band programs do for the activity, but I would call it rivalry, perhaps superiority and a bit of sour grapes, but I’d hardly call that bigotry. 

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21 hours ago, denmum said:

Yes, but for every 1 marching member don't we potentially pick up many many more fans? Possible fans anyway.

First you have to up the amount of members a corps can field right?  By opening up instrumentation to include ww just changes the mix of the members. 

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44 minutes ago, Triple Forte said:

First you have to up the amount of members a corps can field right?  By opening up instrumentation to include ww just changes the mix of the members. 

But that was part of the overall discussion, that woodwinds would require another bus or two so I think we were all taking for granted that the member total would be increased.

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8 minutes ago, denmum said:

But that was part of the overall discussion, that woodwinds would require another bus or two so I think we were all taking for granted that the member total would be increased.

It’s the only thing that makes sense. Otherwise, you’re taking away 20 or so brass instruments and replacing those with woodwinds. Even amplified you would be cutting the sound of the corps. But if you add members you almost need to add 50 to make an additional bus most cost effective. Now the field is cluttered, err, more cluttered. 

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11 minutes ago, denmum said:

But that was part of the overall discussion, that woodwinds would require another bus or two so I think we were all taking for granted that the member total would be increased.

I don't see it going down like this at all (DCI increasing corps size to accommodate woodwInds, extra buses, etc).  I see it like this:

1) DCI soon adopts rule that allows any instrument (woodwinds)

2) Due to many factors (high cost of obtaining and maintaining instruments, need for additional instructional staff, the fact woodwinds are finicky instruments, etc) corps will relegate 99% of woodwind use to solos or small ensembles.  A novelty instrument, used- at most- like trombones/sousaphone/etc now.

3) DCI will shove woodwinds down our throats. With lots of pictures in email blasts, website coverage, etc.  Just like trombones when first adopted, same for french horns, etc.  There will be some great sax/flute/etc players brought in who shred and put on an entertaining show.  Woodwind proponents and DCI will swoon.

4) The root of drum & bugle corps is now completely removed for the sake of what amounts to minor useage of "non-drum corps" instruments, which could easily have been omItted by using aforementioned drums & brass to play the parts.  

It'll be just like trombones.. For the minor/subtle difference they bring to the show the entire look of the activity was changed.  Woodwinds push it even farther down the path. 

I'm obviously not a fan of the loss of traditional bell front brass instrumentation haha... But at this point it is silly to NOT allow woodwinds.  It is all about the look- obviously enough people can't stomach seeing flutes and clarinets on the DCI field.  We have the voice now in the synth.  We also have strings and everything BUT woodwinds allowed on the field.  It is okay to play woodwind patches in the show on a synth but not actually allow the instrument to play it live on the field.  Seems odd to me at this point.

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5 minutes ago, Guitar1974 said:

I don't see it going down like this at all (DCI increasing corps size to accommodate woodwInds, extra buses, etc).  I see it like this:

1) DCI soon adopts rule that allows any instrument (woodwinds)

2) Due to many factors (high cost of obtaining and maintaining instruments, need for additional instructional staff, the fact woodwinds are finicky instruments, etc) corps will relegate 99% of woodwind use to solos or small ensembles.  A novelty instrument, used- at most- like trombones/sousaphone/etc now.

3) DCI will shove woodwinds down our throats. With lots of pictures in email blasts, website coverage, etc.  Just like trombones when first adopted, same for french horns, etc.  There will be some great sax/flute/etc players brought in who shred and put on an entertaining show.  Woodwind proponents and DCI will swoon.

4) The root of drum & bugle corps is now completely removed for the sake of what amounts to minor useage of "non-drum corps" instruments, which could easily have been omItted by using aforementioned drums & brass to play the parts.  

It'll be just like trombones.. For the minor/subtle difference they bring to the show the entire look of the activity was changed.  Woodwinds push it even farther down the path. 

I'm obviously not a fan of the loss of traditional bell front brass instrumentation haha... But at this point it is silly to NOT allow woodwinds.  It is all about the look- obviously enough people can't stomach seeing flutes and clarinets on the DCI field.  We have the voice now in the synth.  We also have strings and everything BUT woodwinds allowed on the field.  It is okay to play woodwind patches in the show on a synth but not actually allow the instrument to play it live on the field.  Seems odd to me at this point.

You forgot to add that this will all be done from the grassy knoll at the behest of the CIA.....

 

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12 minutes ago, Guitar1974 said:

I don't see it going down like this at all (DCI increasing corps size to accommodate woodwInds, extra buses, etc).  I see it like this:

1) DCI soon adopts rule that allows any instrument (woodwinds)

2) Due to many factors (high cost of obtaining and maintaining instruments, need for additional instructional staff, the fact woodwinds are finicky instruments, etc) corps will relegate 99% of woodwind use to solos or small ensembles.  A novelty instrument, used- at most- like trombones/sousaphone/etc now.

3) DCI will shove woodwinds down our throats. With lots of pictures in email blasts, website coverage, etc.  Just like trombones when first adopted, same for french horns, etc.  There will be some great sax/flute/etc players brought in who shred and put on an entertaining show.  Woodwind proponents and DCI will swoon.

4) The root of drum & bugle corps is now completely removed for the sake of what amounts to minor useage of "non-drum corps" instruments, which could easily have been omItted by using aforementioned drums & brass to play the parts.  

It'll be just like trombones.. For the minor/subtle difference they bring to the show the entire look of the activity was changed.  Woodwinds push it even farther down the path. 

I'm obviously not a fan of the loss of traditional bell front brass instrumentation haha... But at this point it is silly to NOT allow woodwinds.  It is all about the look- obviously enough people can't stomach seeing flutes and clarinets on the DCI field.  We have the voice now in the synth.  We also have strings and everything BUT woodwinds allowed on the field.  It is okay to play woodwind patches in the show on a synth but not actually allow the instrument to play it live on the field.  Seems odd to me at this point.

You also forgot opening up the idiom to another 60% of music kids, and their parents.

Imagine the ability to start a new corps if your instrumentation looks nearly identical to the HS and college bands most of them came from.  Is it easier to birth and grow new corps with common instrumentation?  Notwithstanding all of the other challenges of starting and running a corps into sustainability and competitiveness, at least the new corps won't have to retrain it's MM's.

So, a very real question is how the varying voices of instrumentation will be judged.

 

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16 minutes ago, Guitar1974 said:

I don't see it going down like this at all (DCI increasing corps size to accommodate woodwInds, extra buses, etc).  I see it like this:

1) DCI soon adopts rule that allows any instrument (woodwinds)

2) Due to many factors (high cost of obtaining and maintaining instruments, need for additional instructional staff, the fact woodwinds are finicky instruments, etc) corps will relegate 99% of woodwind use to solos or small ensembles.  A novelty instrument, used- at most- like trombones/sousaphone/etc now.

3) DCI will shove woodwinds down our throats. With lots of pictures in email blasts, website coverage, etc.  Just like trombones when first adopted, same for french horns, etc.  There will be some great sax/flute/etc players brought in who shred and put on an entertaining show.  Woodwind proponents and DCI will swoon.

4) The root of drum & bugle corps is now completely removed for the sake of what amounts to minor useage of "non-drum corps" instruments, which could easily have been omItted by using aforementioned drums & brass to play the parts.  

It'll be just like trombones.. For the minor/subtle difference they bring to the show the entire look of the activity was changed.  Woodwinds push it even farther down the path. 

I'm obviously not a fan of the loss of traditional bell front brass instrumentation haha... But at this point it is silly to NOT allow woodwinds.  It is all about the look- obviously enough people can't stomach seeing flutes and clarinets on the DCI field.  We have the voice now in the synth.  We also have strings and everything BUT woodwinds allowed on the field.  It is okay to play woodwind patches in the show on a synth but not actually allow the instrument to play it live on the field.  Seems odd to me at this point.

Not so sure it's the same as trombones.  They have bells and a brass sound even if they gliss is getting VERY old.  THAT transition feels much more like all of the prior brass changes before it.  WW's is a completely different thing.  This switch will, I think, have a much greater impact than adding trombones or a valve.  Maybe a good shock!  But, regardless, with great and long-lasting waves.

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7 minutes ago, garfield said:

You also forgot opening up the idiom to another 60% of music kids, and their parents.

 

 Yeah but from a potential members standpoint it goes a little like this maybe hey Mom Dad how about giving me 4 -5 grand so I can March with a marching band over the summer. 

Parents respond- why would  we let you do that when you can do that for free at your high school or college 

Edited by Triple Forte
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