Fran Haring Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 hour ago, danielray said: I would, however, like to offer a bit of perspective and propose something of challenge. In perspective, sound reinforcement, electronic instruments, sampling, etc. are all very new to drum corps and the marching activity as a whole. There is much to learn and best practices to more consistently implement. Beyond this, there is the very unique challenge of coverage and balance in a scenario where there are new and radically different venues each day with no opportunity for proper sound check prior to performance. Given that drum corps is very much a not-for-profit activity and certainly small scale in comparison to other events utilizing sound reinforcement in these very same stadiums, there is not an ability to draw on the expertise of the top professionals in the industry and the activity is instead much more homegrown and self-taught in this particular area. There is a certainly so much still to learn regarding sound reinforcement and audio in general, but there are so many, so eager to know more. This is where the challenge comes in... Rather than walk away, what about becoming more engaged, but in a different way? You have a very unique understanding of this very topic and could make a genuine impact that could result in very immediate and tangible improvements in the balance and consistency of sound reinforcement within the activity. There is a very practical way to become engaged and influence real change here. During the summer there is the Amplify Marching Arts Audio Seminar produced by Lone Star Percussion. This is a seminar where some of the current thought leaders in the segment get together and share their knowledge, discoveries, and explore ways to continue to improve the overall quality of audio and sound reinforcement within the marching activity. We sponsored this event last summer and hope to continue to get even more engaged moving forward. I would like to personally invite you to be my guest to this seminar this next summer. I would be very curious to get your insights on how the activity may continue to refine and improve this aspect of the experience. I do believe that the activity as a whole would clearly benefit from knowledge and insights, as well as your unvarnished feedback. Well said... I hope he takes you up on your offer, and I hope he is listened to. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 On 11/5/2019 at 6:01 PM, cixelsyd said: Like I said, it would be incorrect to assume anybody "knows how it worked out". You prove my point. The "attendance high of 2007", eh? in the last 25 years yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 12 hours ago, danielray said: In perspective, sound reinforcement, electronic instruments, sampling, etc. are all very new to drum corps and the marching activity as a whole. Very new? DCI has had 16 years to work with amplification, and 11 years of everything else. That ignores the far longer experiences in the other marching arts. In fact, the pre-existence of A&E in marching band was used as justification for passing these rule changes, as it was allegedly proven (cough) successful (COUGH) technology. The only thing they have learned over those 11-16 years is how to suck even more money out of the marching arts through obligatory use of clip-on wireless mics and forests of mic stands to amplify field space. Quote There is much to learn and best practices to more consistently implement. Beyond this, there is the very unique challenge of coverage and balance in a scenario where there are new and radically different venues each day with no opportunity for proper sound check prior to performance. Given that drum corps is very much a not-for-profit activity and certainly small scale in comparison to other events utilizing sound reinforcement in these very same stadiums, there is not an ability to draw on the expertise of the top professionals in the industry and the activity is instead much more homegrown and self-taught in this particular area. There is a certainly so much still to learn regarding sound reinforcement and audio in general, but there are so many, so eager to know more. This is where the challenge comes in... Rather than walk away, what about becoming more engaged, but in a different way? You have a very unique understanding of this very topic and could make a genuine impact that could result in very immediate and tangible improvements in the balance and consistency of sound reinforcement within the activity. There is a very practical way to become engaged and influence real change here. During the summer there is the Amplify Marching Arts Audio Seminar produced by Lone Star Percussion. This is a seminar where some of the current thought leaders in the segment get together and share their knowledge, discoveries, and explore ways to continue to improve the overall quality of audio and sound reinforcement within the marching activity. We sponsored this event last summer and hope to continue to get even more engaged moving forward. I would like to personally invite you to be my guest to this seminar this next summer. I would be very curious to get your insights on how the activity may continue to refine and improve this aspect of the experience. I do believe that the activity as a whole would clearly benefit from knowledge and insights, as well as your unvarnished feedback. From his posts here, it appears that his recommendation would be to get rid of A&E. If that is correct, would he still be welcome at that seminar? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 7 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: in the last 25 years yes. The only "attendance high of 2007" I can think of would have been at the Rose Bowl... the one-and-only time DCI has brought their championship anywhere in the Pacific time zone. And you are using that data point to declare how the A&E change worked out? Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Kimber Posted November 7, 2019 Author Share Posted November 7, 2019 14 hours ago, danielray said: Ray, Firstly, as a long time customer, I cannot tell you how much you have improved the many hours of listening I have done over the years. Many thanks for the incredible innovations and excellent quality. It was actually though Bruce (very indirectly) that I first come across your work. I happened to be at an event that Bruce was also at back in late 90's and he brought up DiAural in discussion. Very curious and fascinated, I began to explore a bit more about the company and tech behind it (Doppler-encoding distortion), which lead to me discovering Kimber Kable. My father was actually an early employee of Word Perfect, back when it was still called SSI and in the little building behind the Winchell's. It was at the height of the Word Perfect era that I ventured up to Odgen to see my very first drum corps show in the summer of 1986. That single event made such an impression, that I've remained just as hooked today as I had been as that 12 year old kid. To your original post, I do absolutely understand your concerns and quite frankly do share in some of these sentiments. I do also understand the possible frustration given how you have very actively supported the activity locally. I would, however, like to offer a bit of perspective and propose something of challenge. In perspective, sound reinforcement, electronic instruments, sampling, etc. are all very new to drum corps and the marching activity as a whole. There is much to learn and best practices to more consistently implement. Beyond this, there is the very unique challenge of coverage and balance in a scenario where there are new and radically different venues each day with no opportunity for proper sound check prior to performance. Given that drum corps is very much a not-for-profit activity and certainly small scale in comparison to other events utilizing sound reinforcement in these very same stadiums, there is not an ability to draw on the expertise of the top professionals in the industry and the activity is instead much more homegrown and self-taught in this particular area. There is a certainly so much still to learn regarding sound reinforcement and audio in general, but there are so many, so eager to know more. This is where the challenge comes in... Rather than walk away, what about becoming more engaged, but in a different way? You have a very unique understanding of this very topic and could make a genuine impact that could result in very immediate and tangible improvements in the balance and consistency of sound reinforcement within the activity. There is a very practical way to become engaged and influence real change here. During the summer there is the Amplify Marching Arts Audio Seminar produced by Lone Star Percussion. This is a seminar where some of the current thought leaders in the segment get together and share their knowledge, discoveries, and explore ways to continue to improve the overall quality of audio and sound reinforcement within the marching activity. We sponsored this event last summer and hope to continue to get even more engaged moving forward. I would like to personally invite you to be my guest to this seminar this next summer. I would be very curious to get your insights on how the activity may continue to refine and improve this aspect of the experience. I do believe that the activity as a whole would clearly benefit from knowledge and insights, as well as your unvarnished feedback. I accept. I could offer to do the same short demonstration that I presented years ago at USITT (United States Institute of Technical Theater) to visually show how 2 (or more) microphones "hearing" the same acoustic event and then electrically mixed together will have a permanently embedded steady state "flange" distortion. Using a small speaker on a stand playing a sine wave towards 2 microphones spaced about 4' apart on stands positioned in a row in such a way that a small adjustment of the mixer gain allows the output to be nulled. The mixer output is fed to a oscilloscope that has a projector output. I used this demo to verify that the 10 foot/10 dB "rule of thumb" actually was true. hahaha, on a sine wave. I then used the output of a Korg tuner at the same frequency to completely and obviously discredit that old rule of thumb. Many folks told me that in 15 minutes I answered some very vexing problems in their venues. I could also prepare a few pages of historic documentation, including a few pages authored by Dr. John Gray McKendrick in 1897 (I have a couple of the first editions) As a side note I have a private library of approx 20,000 volumes focused on acoustics and audio. If a book has ever been written, on the subject I likely have it. I am not opposed to amplification per se, but I do have a bad attitude if the result is an insult to the original. I would also be pleased to consult with the presenters to see if we could offer some specialized high resolution percussion files for their use and amusement. Kind regards, Ray my email is ray@kimber.com 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 4 hours ago, cixelsyd said: Very new? DCI has had 16 years to work with amplification, and 11 years of everything else. That ignores the far longer experiences in the other marching arts. In fact, the pre-existence of A&E in marching band was used as justification for passing these rule changes, as it was allegedly proven (cough) successful (COUGH) technology. The only thing they have learned over those 11-16 years is how to suck even more money out of the marching arts through obligatory use of clip-on wireless mics and forests of mic stands to amplify field space. From his posts here, it appears that his recommendation would be to get rid of A&E. If that is correct, would he still be welcome at that seminar? even with what is happening on the field now, bands weren't doing most of that when the first rule passed. the technology wasn't anywhere close to whats needed. Now in terms of many of the justifications trotted out, and subsequent excuses made for a few years, yeah I am with you there. However some corps have utilized their networks and alumni base to get people in that know and it's easy to tell who those corps are. Granted a lot of what we see and hear now gets blasted more on personal preference of the viewer than on the actual technical aspects. The biggest challenge IMO is a new venue every show except for Indy. major touring acts have all day to set up and test. Corps have 17 minutes to get on, perform and get off. The one thing i do not see which confounds me is groups testing stuff before note 1. I have seen HS bands with way more wires, cables and speakers as well as indoor groups do it, but drum corps doesn't. confounds me to no end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 3 hours ago, cixelsyd said: The only "attendance high of 2007" I can think of would have been at the Rose Bowl... the one-and-only time DCI has brought their championship anywhere in the Pacific time zone. And you are using that data point to declare how the A&E change worked out? Really? I am using the over all DCI trending since 1994. The actual low point is either one of the Orlando years ( can't disagree) or 2010. But for all of the hand wringing in 04 when first amos, then 09 for everything else.....attendance has risen since those low days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said: The one thing i do not see which confounds me is groups testing stuff before note 1. I have seen HS bands with way more wires, cables and speakers as well as indoor groups do it, but drum corps doesn't. confounds me to no end You must not be paying close enough attention. Most corps do a sound check as soon as connections are made. The ones who do not are using a lengthy pre-recorded pre-show as their "sound check" instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyDad Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 No amount of fussing with the technique of amplified sound and/or electronic sound can replace the unplugged acoustic sound. It just can’t. In fact the great compliment to the acoustic sound is demonstrated in the efforts that are made to try to get amplified sound to match the acoustic sound. That is likely why this was the point of no return for some who walked away. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 4 hours ago, Ray Kimber said: I accept. I could offer to do the same short demonstration that I presented years ago at USITT (United States Institute of Technical Theater) to visually show how 2 (or more) microphones "hearing" the same acoustic event and then electrically mixed together will have a permanently embedded steady state "flange" distortion. Using a small speaker on a stand playing a sine wave towards 2 microphones spaced about 4' apart on stands positioned in a row in such a way that a small adjustment of the mixer gain allows the output to be nulled. The mixer output is fed to a oscilloscope that has a projector output. I used this demo to verify that the 10 foot/10 dB "rule of thumb" actually was true. hahaha, on a sine wave. I then used the output of a Korg tuner at the same frequency to completely and obviously discredit that old rule of thumb. Many folks told me that in 15 minutes I answered some very vexing problems in their venues. I could also prepare a few pages of historic documentation, including a few pages authored by Dr. John Gray McKendrick in 1897 (I have a couple of the first editions) As a side note I have a private library of approx 20,000 volumes focused on acoustics and audio. If a book has ever been written, on the subject I likely have it. I am not opposed to amplification per se, but I do have a bad attitude if the result is an insult to the original. I would also be pleased to consult with the presenters to see if we could offer some specialized high resolution percussion files for their use and amusement. Kind regards, Ray my email is ray@kimber.com wow you'd be a hero to many 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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