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3 hours ago, Fran Haring said:

In some cases, semi-warm. :tongue:

But that bus driver looked good in his work black pants and black t shirt hitting that wood block. 🙄

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2 hours ago, garfield said:

So you prepare yourself for what you're about to hear instead of letting what comes to you define what you hear?  Truly curious.  Do you say to yourself "40 reeds, less volume, new voices..." or "...only 25 reeds, bigger sound, fewer voices..." and judge to that?  Or, if you heard two bands do the exact same tunes, one with all brass (Crown-style) and another with the instrumentation written into the original piece, how would you prepare your expectations?

And, sorry, this comes out wrong, but are you judging to your expectations or to the sheets?

 

If a  band doesn't march clarinets, for example, I can hardly expect to hear clarinets and knock them for "missing" that sound. If they have no tubas, ditto. I can't knock them for failing to have a tuba sound. I evaluate them on what they sound like based on what their instrumentation is. If a band marches a clarinet section, I expect their ensemble sonority to include that sound.

Going back decades ago when corps-style bands were just taking off, at least here in NJ  a lot of times the brass were front and center, with a full woodwind section buried in the back just being used to fill out a form. That has changed over the years, thankfully. 

 

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14 hours ago, garfield said:

Turns out to be true, and this is just the first to decide it can't be done.  This is as it should be.

Isn't this a rational approach by DCI member corps if they were attempting to reclaim exclusivity as an activity, and maybe as a "League" (The Major League).

If there were a separate tour for "smaller" corps from WC then, potentially, orgs like Encorps would have a place to perform, so it goes.

If not diluting the DCI brand, and hopefully elevating it, is the goal of the voting members, then this move makes logical sense.

OC corps gets 50's at prelims isn't diluting the brand? being shuttled off to "B" towns isn't diluting the brand?

 

OC is already treated like the ######## step child in many ways, and worse, they voted for it for themselves

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6 hours ago, garfield said:

I don't think the actual number is the point - that's bus-sized.  But, in general, the number is increasing.  The presumption is that QUALITY at shows will improve and more tickets at higher prices will be sold.  

Not really, well, maybe a little Devil's advocate (ahem!  NOT Blue Devil's advocate for anyone who's warped mind might take them that way...).

I have a rudimentary understanding of the qualification process and the dedication of the group that's required.  I wonder:  Does BD REALLY want to look like a good marching band?  How do they maintain "Major League" status.  All of the things you describe are true - the requirements are high.  And the math is tilted in favor of the champions.  But, remember, in a weird way, smaller-budget corps are more "self-funded" (i.e. getting relatively little revenue from DCI) than the headliners.  But even those numbers from DCI's "payout" is a relatively small amount  of almost any corps budget.  The math is tilted to the victors in more impactful ways, like sponsorship and equipment deals.  Most corps corpus is the MM's dues and fees.  The good ones are able to build well beyond that through luck and hard work.

What "exclusivity" has DCI lost?  Now...  I'm not sure if your being sarcastic.  It's rushing headlong into evaporating the last of its exclusivity.  It looks more like band now than ever and is about to become exactly like band in most design and non-execution ways.

Yes, Encore wasn't able to play because they couldn't demonstrate that they could fill a bus and, thus, "waters down" the Major League image. (<-- Full on sarcastic Devil's advocate)  And, I presume, to the exclusivity exclusion of the competitive "club" as you call it.

Ummm... It appears debatable that "growth" of the activity is measured by the number of performances in a show/competition.

I think Crown is not going to be willing to adopt AI for fear of risking that "Crown Brass" sound, or others who have a signature sound.  I think member count has a much bigger impact.  Imagine 200 Crown horns vs. someone else's 125 horns and 50 or 60 woodwinds.  A serious judging change has to be adopted to make that work, in my novice opinion.

Too long.  Sorry.

 

 

 

quality at OC shows won't draw given where they run most of them

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13 hours ago, garfield said:

I don't think the actual number is the point

Then leave it at 30.

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But, in general, the number is increasing.  The presumption is that QUALITY at shows will improve and more tickets at higher prices will be sold.  

How will quality improve?  For that matter, how will quality change at all? 

In the naive view, where the 30-55 corps accept this change and go SoundSport, we would have the same corps with the same quality performing at the same shows.  The only difference is that a few of them now have to pay more to participate because they are SoundSport instead of OC - that will not help their quality.  Meanwhile, the quality of the other corps does not change.

The alternative (where these corps drop out like Encorps) just makes shows smaller.

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I have a rudimentary understanding of the qualification process and the dedication of the group that's required.  I wonder:  Does BD REALLY want to look like a good marching band?  How do they maintain "Major League" status. 

Trombones.  Sousaphones.  Concert French horns.  It appears BD has no objection to resembling a marching band.  And yes, they are good at it.  If you have any concern, try asking here if anyone thinks BD is not major league status, and see what responses you get.

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What "exclusivity" has DCI lost?  Now...  I'm not sure if your being sarcastic. 

Ironically, I am not sure either.  I mean, "exclusivity" can range from that which is earned (from obvious quality) to that which is contrived (by making a private club).  So the nature of the answer determines the sarcasm content of the question, I guess.

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It's rushing headlong into evaporating the last of its exclusivity.  It looks more like band now than ever and is about to become exactly like band in most design and non-execution ways.

DCI evidently sees no problem with that.  To them, band is not a four letter word.

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Yes, Encore wasn't able to play because they couldn't demonstrate that they could fill a bus and, thus, "waters down" the Major League image. (<-- Full on sarcastic Devil's advocate)  And, I presume, to the exclusivity exclusion of the competitive "club" as you call it.

At some point, being "exclusive" can go too far.  

Now, I realize that DCI.org is out of date (there, it still says 30 members), so referring to the strategic plan published there risks inaccuracy.  Regardless, it sure looks like DCI wants to grow and improve.  Part of how they go about that is to spread their impact through increasing participation.  More corps would accomplish that.  So does the licensing of SoundSport all over the globe.

Fear of "diluting the brand", IMO, runs exactly counter to that.  Fewer corps.  Fewer events.  Fewer event partners.  Run everything ourselves.  Market "exclusivity" as the end, not even just a means to an end.  We have seen this philosophy before (G7), so it is not surprising to see it reappear.

When the compulsion to be "exclusive" causes an organization to exclude some participants, fans, and supporters (volunteers and donors), it can become counterproductive.  If 54-member corps "dilute the brand", then SoundSport surely does as well.  One day, corps 55-75 in size will be seen as "diluting the brand", so move the goalposts again.  For that matter, how is the whole of open-class not "diluting the brand"?  Cast it all off.

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Ummm... It appears debatable that "growth" of the activity is measured by the number of performances in a show/competition.

Then what is the measure?  We are talking about tossing 7 corps overboard, and moving the goalposts so that most other prospective corps are shut out.  Less corps means less performances at some shows, true.  It also means less shows, less show hosts, less people marching, less people running corps, less $$$ brought into the overall activity by people running corps, less fans of the less corps, and so forth.  No matter how you measure growth, this moves the needle - downward.

And if that was not bad enough, apparently the SoundSport program, whose founding principle was to grow participation, has now been perverted to take advantage of groups at that level and squeeze money out of them instead.  The hell with growth.  The only possible growth I see here would be in the pockets of the corps who remain above that raised bar.  The rich get richer.

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It is unfortunate that due to the demise of DCM and other local circuits, there is no room left in the activity for smaller Corps to perform.  My Corps never had more than about 50 members, but we threw it down each weekend.  And there were a dozen or so other similarly-sized Corps within the circuit that did the same.

Some of us are able to perform in a 25-member horn line without needing an additional 50 members to back us up.

 

PS - I suspect Pepe Notaro is spinning in his grave over this decision.

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9 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

OC corps gets 50's at prelims isn't diluting the brand? being shuttled off to "B" towns isn't diluting the brand?

 

OC is already treated like the ######## step child in many ways, and worse, they voted for it for themselves

It would be most interesting to see from what unit(s) the motion on the floor generated, who the proponents were, and what reasoning was used to push it.

Years back Open Class began as the merger of Div. 2 and Div. 3 corps. This motion not only knocks out Encorps and similar, but buries Div. 3 for eternity.

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5 minutes ago, xandandl said:

It would be most interesting to see from what unit(s) the motion on the floor generated, who the proponents were, and what reasoning was used to push it.

Years back Open Class began as the merger of Div. 2 and Div. 3 corps. This motion not only knocks out Encorps and similar, but buries Div. 3 for eternity.

honestly....you make corps have to be bigger, then fewer corps, which means people can raise the membership limit above 154. More kids available right?

 

and how is this decided now? Aren't these things to be voted on in January, not the fall?

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58 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

honestly....you make corps have to be bigger, then fewer corps, which means people can raise the membership limit above 154. More kids available right?

 

and how is this decided now? Aren't these things to be voted on in January, not the fall?

I remember back in the 80’s or 90’s, before G7, there was a lot of talk of dusting the smaller corps and only have a group of supercorps.   

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