2020 Rules Proposals

[Terri Schehr]

Just now, cixelsyd said:

If they just want to entertain, then they should open up their BoD meetings to the public.  Especially this week.

I’d pay a c note for that. 

[Glenn426]

Just now, cixelsyd said:

If they just want to entertain, then they should open up their BoD meetings to the public.  Especially this week.

How much would you pay to watch that? I'd give them $50 I'd sit there spamming chat... Screaming at my computer...

[cfirwin3]

1 hour ago, exitmusic said:

all instruments should be legal.

it's stupid that corps are allowed to synthesize any instrument in the world but that we can't have that actual instrument because TRADITION.

 

I agree, if you can synthesize any instrument (particularly by sampling it) then you should be able to play any instrument... but for the bounds of the idiom as "they" see fit (which might be TRADITIONal, but that's not necessarily a wrong basis when points are involved, as they are).

Right now, the drumcorps idiom in DCI is Brass, Percussion and a variety of electronic (which is a super broad category) coloring.  Making that leap to other wind instruments changes the idiom... which isn't necessarily wrong, but it certainly would make Drum and Bugle corps Marching Band as per the AI proposal.  The Bluecoats proposal could actually do a very limited similar thing by justifying that a non-brass or percussion instrument could be live sampled.  But this more obscure interpretation doesn't seem to involve the addition of full sections of instruments, but rather just the effect of processing acoustic sounds into something new.

Where and why do you draw the line(s)?  Do you limit synthesis to only wave form sythesis... excluding samples?  Can you do that and still allow an electric guitar (which is an amplified string and functionally no different than a violin with a pick-up)?

It's all arbitrary and bound by a voting body.  Nothing wrong with that.  They are trying to balance their creative interests and the proverbial sacred cows of the fans (which sometimes align and sometimes do not).

[cybersnyder]

57 minutes ago, Glenn426 said:

When I say Cirque I mean the Theatrics, The mix of entertainment elements, the Lighting, the Quality.

And Blast continues to thrive in Japan, Many of my friends have been and continue to tour with them during the summers.

Blast pulled in about $8 million in the 6-7 months it was on Broadway. It ended in September 2001 and we all know what happened then that likely hastened its end. While it was certainly a success, that was 20 years ago and we haven't seen a successful follow up. 

[Year Fiver]

54 minutes ago, Glenn426 said:

At that point in their life (An OC Age participant) , they didn't pay for that horn, their parents did. I would want to march even if it meant insuring that I took care of the horn as it where my own.

It doesn't matter who paid for the horn--it's nonetheless true that damage incurred would negatively impact the quality of that person's personally owned horn. You can also take care of the horn you use on the field as well as you want, but the nature of DCI is that dings, grime, tarnish, and other damage are inevitable and ultimately unavoidable. If a bit of choreo requires you to place your instrument on the ground and your rehearsal field for the day is muddy, you now have mud under your keys. That's time-consuming enough to deal with on a marching horn (I specifically had a breakdown because of this once after rolling around in a mud puddle for half an hour because I had an EPL corps job and knew I wouldn't have adequate time to detail clean my mud-caked horn). If you come in with a non-marching trumpet, it's going to fare even worse. And with a woodwind with all those keys and moving parts? Infinitely more time-consuming, not to mention that I don't think cleaning a mud-filled saxophone is as logistically simple as showering with it. And certainly parents wouldn't want to shell out for two instruments so their kid can have one practice horn and one performance horn. There is absolutely no way to reasonably prevent sunscreen, bug spray, dirt, dust, sweat, and other grime form getting on you/your instrument/any of your possessions in general while on tour, no matter how hard you try, but the intention of rehearsal gloves is to mitigate as much of that as possible. Marching gloves designed for woodwind players are fingerless, but allowing your bare skin to come in contact with your instrument is antithetical to maintaining its lacquer when it comes to a drum corps context, so the question of where the happy balance would lay between "playability" and "protection" is up in the air.

In that vein, parents cannot be relied upon to understand musical equipment because the average band parent isn't actually a knowledgeable musician themselves. My elementary school band director told horror stories about kids coming in with those plastic pink "trumpets" they sell at parades, expecting to learn how to play them. The beauty of corps providing equipment is that they can avoid the problems of parents or students picking out equipment that isn't quality--no cheap Indian/Chinese off-model horns, no budget student horns, etc.

Having your instrument insured by the corps instead of being maintained directly out of your own pocket is a really big deal that shouldn't be disregarded. When my brand new corps horn got a big dent in the bell because a flag came down on it, I wasn't charged by my corps for damages, because that was obviously a situation out of my control and it would have been wrong to fault me for it. Even the absolute best marchers can still fall when the ground under them is slick or when somebody else misses their dot, and falling puts an instrument at risk in ways that indoor performance doesn't have to deal with. When horn members on tour break their water keys or lose a valve guide, those parts can be easily replaced by corps staff, because the models used in the line are already standardized and have so few moving parts anyways that having spare bits onhand is logistically very simple, not to mention that the horn doctor is a godsend. Having a line of mixed makes/models adds logistics, as does adding new instruments that use different moving bits--especially if you introduce multiple classes of woodwinds into the equation, and especially if those woodwinds are also different makes/models amongst each other. If somebody were to bring their own horn, should the responsibility of maintenance and spare parts be shifted onto them personally, as well? Would this hypothetical open class member be sent off on tour with not only two identical instruments (practice and performance), but potentially also a third to cannibalize for parts if necessary? I'm also not even sure where woodwinds would keep their reeds on tour, since both rehearsal bags and buses are incredibly hot and not climate controlled, and anything left in the gym is liable to be stolen. Additionally, would they have to bring a summer's worth of reeds with them from the start, or would they have to pray that mail drops and free days work out?

The fact that instruments aren't built for those kinds of heavy duty conditions is already a problem with equipment that is allowed, for example trombones (which are made of thinner metal and have an oh-so-bendable protruding slide which is exposed to hazards even when not playing) and soloist concert horns (which are not durable like marching horns) getting damaged on tour has been a problem, and a common workaround is to use separate rehearsal and performance horns. It's a problem within the land of electronics, too, because the electronic equipment that corps are currently using aren't built to handle 24/7 exposure to the elements.

The way that many woodwind players in college marching bands mitigate many of these problems is by buying plastic versions of their instruments, so that their nice concert horns won't be wrecked by outdoor band (see: pbones, plastic clarinets, etc). However it's fair to say that these don't produce the kind of quality musical sound that DCI tends to strive for in ways that many college marching ensembles don't necessarily. If a kid shows up to a DCI camp with a subpar instrument, that's a detriment to the corps' performance capabilities, and yet a quality instrument wouldn't be able to stand up to the elements. Advocating for more and more types of equipment to be allowed in drum corps is kind of putting the cart before the horse when that equipment is incredibly difficult to maintain; if I had my way, I would say we should be lobbying instrument manufacturers to make more drum corps-grade electronics, pit equipment, and non-traditional brass instruments (trombones, concert soloist horns) at a corps-affordable price range first, or maybe see what we can do about making climate controlled storage or regular instrument deep cleaning more consistently possible. I'll repeat: it's ultimately not in anyone's best interest for a student to bring their own horn to do corps.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Year Fiver

[MikeN]

16 minutes ago, Year Fiver said:

I'll repeat: it's ultimately not in anyone's best interest for a student to bring their own horn to do corps.

Well said.  I'll add that after having to take a bunch of horns to the repair guy on Prelims night and seeing his face after he saw our contra held together with zip ties... I'm not sure it's in anyone's interest to have anyone use any horn *period* in drum corps... 😁

Mike

[Glenn426]

50 minutes ago, cybersnyder said:

Blast pulled in about $8 million in the 6-7 months it was on Broadway. It ended in September 2001 and we all know what happened then that likely hastened its end. While it was certainly a success, that was 20 years ago and we haven't seen a successful follow up. 

IDK It seems like they are doing ok to me.

https://blast-tour.jp/newinfor.html

59 Performances in 32 Venues for 2019 tour.

Performed for 1.25 Million people since its inception in Japan. 

There is a market for it, Just the people that would likely enjoy it don't want to go to a Football field to enjoy it. What if DCI toured empty basketball arenas instead of Football Fields?

[cybersnyder]

12 minutes ago, Glenn426 said:

IDK It seems like they are doing ok to me.

https://blast-tour.jp/newinfor.html

59 Performances in 32 Venues for 2019 tour.

Performed for 1.25 Million people since its inception in Japan. 

There is a market for it, Just the people that would likely enjoy it don't want to go to a Football field to enjoy it. What if DCI toured empty basketball arenas instead of Football Fields?

In Japan, yes. I believe they also have indoor competitions similar to what you're talking about. In Japan it's almost all female members in the band. 

I really thought that the oil crisis of 10 or so years ago (or maybe it was longer) would have forced DCI into a smaller indoor show format similar to WGI Winds, but that didn't happen.

[Glenn426]

47 minutes ago, Year Fiver said:

It doesn't matter who paid for the horn--it's nonetheless true that damage incurred would negatively impact the quality of that person's personally owned horn. You can also take care of the horn you use on the field as well as you want, but the nature of DCI is that dings, grime, tarnish, and other damage are inevitable and ultimately unavoidable. If a bit of choreo requires you to place your instrument on the ground and your rehearsal field for the day is muddy, you now have mud under your keys. That's time-consuming enough to deal with on a marching horn (I specifically had a breakdown because of this once after rolling around in a mud puddle for half an hour because I had an EPL corps job and knew I wouldn't have adequate time to detail clean my mud-caked horn). If you come in with a non-marching trumpet, it's going to fare even worse. And with a woodwind with all those keys and moving parts? Infinitely more time-consuming, not to mention that I don't think cleaning a mud-filled saxophone is as logistically simple as showering with it. And certainly parents wouldn't want to shell out for two instruments so their kid can have one practice horn and one performance horn. There is absolutely no way to reasonably prevent sunscreen, bug spray, dirt, dust, sweat, and other grime form getting on you/your instrument/any of your possessions in general while on tour, no matter how hard you try, but the intention of rehearsal gloves is to mitigate as much of that as possible. Marching gloves designed for woodwind players are fingerless, but allowing your bare skin to come in contact with your instrument is antithetical to maintaining its lacquer when it comes to a drum corps context, so the question of where the happy balance would lay between "playability" and "protection" is up in the air.

This is a problem that I'm sure that Yamaha will like to solve and market to all of the HS Marching bands across the country.

In that vein, parents cannot be relied upon to understand musical equipment because the average band parent isn't actually a knowledgeable musician themselves. My elementary school band director told horror stories about kids coming in with those plastic pink "trumpets" they sell at parades, expecting to learn how to play them. The beauty of corps providing equipment is that they can avoid the problems of parents or students picking out equipment that isn't quality--no cheap Indian/Chinese off-model horns, no budget student horns, etc.

Having your instrument insured by the corps instead of being maintained directly out of your own pocket is a really big deal that shouldn't be disregarded. When my brand new corps horn got a big dent in the bell because a flag came down on it, I wasn't charged by my corps for damages, because that was obviously a situation out of my control and it would have been wrong to fault me for it. Even the absolute best marchers can still fall when the ground under them is slick or when somebody else misses their dot, and falling puts an instrument at risk in ways that indoor performance doesn't have to deal with. When horn members on tour break their water keys or lose a valve guide, those parts can be easily replaced by corps staff, because the models used in the line are already standardized and have so few moving parts anyways that having spare bits onhand is logistically very simple, not to mention that the horn doctor is a godsend. Having a line of mixed makes/models adds logistics, as does adding new instruments that use different moving bits--especially if you introduce multiple classes of woodwinds into the equation, and especially if those woodwinds are also different makes/models amongst each other. If somebody were to bring their own horn, should the responsibility of maintenance and spare parts be shifted onto them personally, as well? Would this hypothetical open class member be sent off on tour with not only two identical instruments (practice and performance), but potentially also a third to cannibalize for parts if necessary? I'm also not even sure where woodwinds would keep their reeds on tour, since both rehearsal bags and buses are incredibly hot and not climate controlled, and anything left in the gym is liable to be stolen. Additionally, would they have to bring a summer's worth of reeds with them from the start, or would they have to pray that mail drops and free days work out?

Those traveling Horn Doctors that follow the corps around would surely not only know how to fix brass instruments, during the winter they are probably fixing WW instruments as well. And if they dont I'm sure there is a need for WW specialist to follow the corps around just as the Horn Doctor does/ did now.

The fact that instruments aren't built for those kinds of heavy duty conditions is already a problem with equipment that is allowed, for example trombones (which are made of thinner metal and have an oh-so-bendable protruding slide which is exposed to hazards even when not playing) and soloist concert horns (which are not durable like marching horns) getting damaged on tour has been a problem, and a common workaround is to use separate rehearsal and performance horns. It's a problem within the land of electronics, too, because the electronic equipment that corps are currently using aren't built to handle 24/7 exposure to the elements.

And still they are both used and they take extra care. All of the field techs dont just work with DCI, they instruct Bands during the Fall and Winter and I'm sure would know the best practices that they would use for the corps.

The way that many woodwind players in college marching bands mitigate many of these problems is by buying plastic versions of their instruments, so that their nice concert horns won't be wrecked by outdoor band (see: pbones, plastic clarinets, etc). However it's fair to say that these don't produce the kind of quality musical sound that DCI tends to strive for in ways that many college marching ensembles don't necessarily. If a kid shows up to a DCI camp with a subpar instrument, that's a detriment to the corps' performance capabilities, and yet a quality instrument wouldn't be able to stand up to the elements. Advocating for more and more types of equipment to be allowed in drum corps is kind of putting the cart before the horse when that equipment is incredibly difficult to maintain; if I had my way, I would say we should be lobbying instrument manufacturers to make more drum corps-grade electronics, pit equipment, and non-traditional brass instruments (trombones, concert soloist horns) at a corps-affordable price range first, or maybe see what we can do about making climate controlled storage or regular instrument deep cleaning more consistently possible. I'll repeat: it's ultimately not in anyone's best interest for a student to bring their own horn to do corps.

To your first point in this paragraph, I would say that the onus is on the manufacturer's to solve this problem. Durability and quality need to be elevated. reducing the number of moving parts and increasing the quality out of more durable materials would be on the horizon. 

And to your own instrument point, yes the own instrument would be a last resort but there are no rules stopping that from happening and with instruments that are not as common, there is nothing stopping a corps from allowing that to happen.

 

[JimF-LowBari]

2 hours ago, Glenn426 said:

Now I know the norm is for the Corps to provide instruments, What would stop that kid from marching his own horn for the summer?

If the horn of a different manufacturer it wouldn’t blend too well with the other instruments of that type. One of my alumni type corps took years to make sure each voice is on marching horns. Made a difference that even my untrained ear am an pick up