dbc03 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 1 minute ago, George Dixon said: Having a private organization wanting to be all male is NOT discrimination. Legally or otherwise. You lost the debate big time when you brought up white supremacy. It is, by definition, discrimination. They are excluding people based only on their gender. You can argue that the benefits of having an all male corps outweigh the cons of discriminating against women, I understand the arguments for doing so, I just don't agree with them. But instead you'd rather focus in on intentionally misinterpreting my other post instead of the actual matter at hand. Since you've brought up legality a couple times now, I haven't claimed that an all male drum corps is against the law. Not all discrimination is illegal. They can legally exclude anyone they want. However, I personally disagree with their choice to exclude people based on gender. The courts aren't the final arbiters of morality for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlamMan Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 13 minutes ago, dbc03 said: It is, by definition, discrimination. They are excluding people based only on their gender. You can argue that the benefits of having an all male corps outweigh the cons of discriminating against women, I understand the arguments for doing so, I just don't agree with them. But instead you'd rather focus in on intentionally misinterpreting my other post instead of the actual matter at hand. Since you've brought up legality a couple times now, I haven't claimed that an all male drum corps is against the law. Not all discrimination is illegal. They can legally exclude anyone they want. However, I personally disagree with their choice to exclude people based on gender. The courts aren't the final arbiters of morality for me. How do you feel about the Rockettes, Hooters, the red hat club, Miss America pageant, Mary Kaye, etc? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbc03 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 21 minutes ago, FlamMan said: How do you feel about the Rockettes, Hooters, the red hat club, Miss America pageant, Mary Kaye, etc? Fine, gross, unfamiliar, gross, I consider all MLMs to be a scam. Your real question is do I have a problem with groups that discriminate against men by membership to only women. The answer is it depends. Sometimes the benefits to women can outweigh the cons to men. I don't even have a firm categorical disapproval of men's only groups. I can't think of any specific ones of the top of my head that I think are good, but I'm open to the idea. Maybe a support group for men who have been abused by a spouse? I just don't put drum corps in that bucket. It's not a black and white thing, the world is complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito365 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 30 minutes ago, dbc03 said: Fine, gross, unfamiliar, gross, I consider all MLMs to be a scam. Your real question is do I have a problem with groups that discriminate against men by membership to only women. The answer is it depends. Sometimes the benefits to women can outweigh the cons to men. I don't even have a firm categorical disapproval of men's only groups. I can't think of any specific ones of the top of my head that I think are good, but I'm open to the idea. Maybe a support group for men who have been abused by a spouse? I just don't put drum corps in that bucket. It's not a black and white thing, the world is complicated. No no no, can't feel fine with the Rockettes or any of the organizations that was mentioned because why? They don't include men, which by your definition would be discrimination. So now we have walked into the double standards volume of your encyclopedia of bull. This is where I walk away because you can't want things to be equal but it be okay for all female organizations to exclude men. Simple as that. Also, as a gay male, when is the all male version of Hooters opening up?! Someone needs to start this ASAP! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlamMan Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 36 minutes ago, dbc03 said: Fine, gross, unfamiliar, gross, I consider all MLMs to be a scam. Your real question is do I have a problem with groups that discriminate against men by membership to only women. The answer is it depends. Sometimes the benefits to women can outweigh the cons to men. I don't even have a firm categorical disapproval of men's only groups. I can't think of any specific ones of the top of my head that I think are good, but I'm open to the idea. Maybe a support group for men who have been abused by a spouse? I just don't put drum corps in that bucket. It's not a black and white thing, the world is complicated. What the heck is gross about Hooters and the Miss America pageant? You better stay away from the beach and swimming pools. Ewww!!! Scantily clad Girls who are doing it by choice! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slingerland Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, dbc03 said: Your real question is do I have a problem with groups that discriminate against men by membership to only women. The answer is it depends. Sometimes the benefits to women can outweigh the cons to men. True equality would mean that the reverse can also thus be true. Edited February 8, 2020 by Slingerland 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 3 hours ago, Weaklefthand4ever said: I resemble that remark.... My first audition, Spirit of Atlanta 1986 one of the comments that was made was "I have every confidence that you could play the book perfectly...if you weren't having to march while doing it." 🤣 Think mine was a take off on the old baseball scouts report BITD. He was told to be concise in his telegram to the team. Telegram said “Good field, no hit”. My report was “good play, no march”. Thank goodness the corps needed “upright and breathing “. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbc03 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 37 minutes ago, FlamMan said: What the heck is gross about Hooters and the Miss America pageant? You better stay away from the beach and swimming pools. Ewww!!! Scantily clad Girls who are doing it by choice! Hooters is for gross old men and teenagers who want to sexualize and objectify young women and eat food that tastes like garbage. Miss America isn't as bad as that, but is still objectifying women, I admit that I'm not all that familiar with the details of the Miss America pageant, I've never watched it but maybe it has some value that I'm not aware of, but you asked my opinion. I have no problem with women wearing bathing suits, I have problems with the gross men getting their jollies by ogling them 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbc03 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 30 minutes ago, Incognito365 said: No no no, can't feel fine with the Rockettes or any of the organizations that was mentioned because why? They don't include men, which by your definition would be discrimination. So now we have walked into the double standards volume of your encyclopedia of bull. This is where I walk away because you can't want things to be equal but it be okay for all female organizations to exclude men. Simple as that. Also, as a gay male, when is the all male version of Hooters opening up?! Someone needs to start this ASAP! 10 minutes ago, Slingerland said: True equality would mean that the reverse can also thus be true. It's almost like ya'll are responding to only the first part of my post and ignoring the rest of my post because it is inconvenient to your argument. Shocking. I don't believe I ever brought up or used the word equality, I just said I don't think that drum corps shouldn't have membership policies that discriminate against women. You are right that allowing women only organizations but not allowing men only organizations isn't equal, but depending on the circumstances it can be equitable. Anyway, this has been fun, but I think the conversation has gone as far as it can and I'm not going to keep responding to bad faith arguments. I realize that I'm not going to change the opinion of anyone I'm interacting with, but my hope is that maybe someone reading along will at least give their position on the matter a second thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 Just now, dbc03 said: Hooters is for gross old men and teenagers who want to sexualize and objectify young women and eat food that tastes like garbage. Hooters has food? Someone had to say it.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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