garfield Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 6 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: have you eaten some of Hooters food? oh and they don't serve Jack Daniels. that's discrimination against whiskey and bourbon lovers Hard to eat when you're gagging on the vision of a 250lb white male with both a 5-o'clock and eye shadow serving bad burgers in hot pants and a tank top. "You GO...you!" Oh, and don't forget the big tip because, you know, white men like you have all the money and systematically keep it from the "lowly" wait-person voluntarily serving you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 18 hours ago, dbc03 said: It's almost like ya'll are responding to only the first part of my post and ignoring the rest of my post because it is inconvenient to your argument. Shocking. I don't believe I ever brought up or used the word equality, I just said I don't think that drum corps shouldn't have membership policies that discriminate against women. You are right that allowing women only organizations but not allowing men only organizations isn't equal, but depending on the circumstances it can be equitable. Anyway, this has been fun, but I think the conversation has gone as far as it can and I'm not going to keep responding to bad faith arguments. I realize that I'm not going to change the opinion of anyone I'm interacting with, but my hope is that maybe someone reading along will at least give their position on the matter a second thought. Three panels of explanatory "outrage" that can be reduced to two that creates equity and equality: Build the wall higher than the tallest person. Everyone who didn't buy a ticket gets treated equally. (Also, isn't this panel explanation itself oppressive and exclusionary? Do any non-white, non-male people like baseball? OK, I admit that now I'm just picking on your weak argument.) Drum corps has done an exemplary job of being open and inviting, and the "old white men" who systematically formed and run it have done a pretty good job of bringing it to hundreds of thousands of members and millions of fans. From all of those systematically oppressive white men: "You're welcome". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbc03 Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 3 hours ago, garfield said: Most of your arguments here are thin, weak, and poorly-defended, but the profound nature of this statement convinces me that you have a deep and thoughtful understanding of the issue's salient points. /s The "angry white men" of the drum corps community have done a pretty good job of bringing this activity to hundreds of thousands of kids while being among the most open and inviting activities available today. You're welcome if you can manage to hurl a Thank You out with the vomit you're spewing. You're entitled to your own opinion, and you're entitled to come here and try to make your point against the activity. I will welcome the evidence of current systematic discrimination you describe in drum corps (to date, headed by mostly "white men"). Rule books, policy manuals, regulations...anything in writing that demonstrates your point OTHER THAN "We choose to be an all-male group". Something tells me that, for you, this issue goes well beyond whether or not Madison or Cavies are all-male. 3 hours ago, garfield said: Three panels of explanatory "outrage" that can be reduced to two that creates equity and equality: Build the wall higher than the tallest person. Everyone who didn't buy a ticket gets treated equally. (Also, isn't this panel explanation itself oppressive and exclusionary? Do any non-white, non-male people like baseball? OK, I admit that now I'm just picking on your weak argument.) Drum corps has done an exemplary job of being open and inviting, and the "old white men" who systematically formed and run it have done a pretty good job of bringing it to hundreds of thousands of members and millions of fans. From all of those systematically oppressive white men: "You're welcome". You and others are ascribing a lot of beliefs to me that don't exist. I agree that drum corps is overall pretty inclusive, although I think there is room for improvement, diversity is difficult when the cost of entry is approaching $5000. As I said before, it is becoming a rich kid's game. In terms of gender and LGBTQ inclusion in corps membership it is easily the most inclusive activity that I've been involved with (It would be nice to see a better balance in corps leadership, but that's an argument for another day). I still like and support drum corps. I go to shows, I financially support a corps, I spend free time debating how to make things better on an internet forum. Drum corps made me who I am today, and I'm grateful for it. I'm grateful to the men and women of all colors who have contributed to the activity, yes even including the white men. I even like The Cavaliers. I imagine that like most corps they do a lot of good for their members. I typically enjoy their shows, and hope that eventually they get back to mid-2000s form (maybe expanding the talent pool would help 😝). I don't think they should exclude women though. I don't think they are bad people, I don't think they are all being intentionally sexist, I just think that in this case they are wrong and I wish they would change. It's fine that people don't agree, obviously we all think we are right, but I've given a lot of thought to my reasons for feeling this way and I've explained them the best I can. Don't confuse the passion with which I explain my convictions with the amount I care about the specific situation. I think The Cavaliers should allow women. I'm not protesting The Cavaliers, I'm not boycotting The Cavaliers, I don't hate The Cavaliers, I'm not even telling the people with the power to fix it that they should fix it. It's a drop in the bucket of what I believe are larger societal issues. I've tried to be respectful and not attack anyone here (with the exception of Hooters patrons, but to be fair I feel more strongly about that than Cavies), but people obviously take it very personally. If anyone felt I was attacking them personally I apologize, but I do not apologize for my opinions. If stating and defending my opinions on the activity is "spewing hate" then maybe I'll change my username to Mt Vesuvius cause DCP is gonna be Pompeii 😁 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 1 minute ago, dbc03 said: diversity is difficult when the cost of entry is approaching $5000. As I said before, it is becoming a rich kid's game. When you add in travel expenses and fees for auditions and then camps, the $5,000 cost was probably passed years ago. It's been a "rich kid's game" for some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, dbc03 said: You and others are ascribing a lot of beliefs to me that don't exist. I agree that drum corps is overall pretty inclusive, although I think there is room for improvement, diversity is difficult when the cost of entry is approaching $5000. As I said before, it is becoming a rich kid's game. In terms of gender and LGBTQ inclusion in corps membership it is easily the most inclusive activity that I've been involved with (It would be nice to see a better balance in corps leadership, but that's an argument for another day). I still like and support drum corps. I go to shows, I financially support a corps, I spend free time debating how to make things better on an internet forum. Drum corps made me who I am today, and I'm grateful for it. I'm grateful to the men and women of all colors who have contributed to the activity, yes even including the white men. I even like The Cavaliers. I imagine that like most corps they do a lot of good for their members. I typically enjoy their shows, and hope that eventually they get back to mid-2000s form (maybe expanding the talent pool would help 😝). I don't think they should exclude women though. I don't think they are bad people, I don't think they are all being intentionally sexist, I just think that in this case they are wrong and I wish they would change. It's fine that people don't agree, obviously we all think we are right, but I've given a lot of thought to my reasons for feeling this way and I've explained them the best I can. Don't confuse the passion with which I explain my convictions with the amount I care about the specific situation. I think The Cavaliers should allow women. I'm not protesting The Cavaliers, I'm not boycotting The Cavaliers, I don't hate The Cavaliers, I'm not even telling the people with the power to fix it that they should fix it. It's a drop in the bucket of what I believe are larger societal issues. I've tried to be respectful and not attack anyone here (with the exception of Hooters patrons, but to be fair I feel more strongly about that than Cavies), but people obviously take it very personally. If anyone felt I was attacking them personally I apologize, but I do not apologize for my opinions. If stating and defending my opinions on the activity is "spewing hate" then maybe I'll change my username to Mt Vesuvius cause DCP is gonna be Pompeii 😁 I really very much appreciate your comments here. Your prior comments seemed driven more by your collecting virtue points than actually describing the drum corps activity. When you resort to the "white men bad" bile, you know you're gonna get push back as usual. There are only a few here who say they actually hate the activity (the conflict should be obvious) so, obviously, those who came before us didn't do a terrible job. I'm glad to hear you acknowledge that we, in this activity today, stand on the shoulders of those who came before us and built what we have today. If drum corps teaches its members about life, I think we adults would teach them well by encouraging such recognition in their broader lives even while they're painting their protest signs hating white men. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 11 minutes ago, Ghost said: When you add in travel expenses and fees for auditions and then camps, the $5,000 cost was probably passed years ago. It's been a "rich kid's game" for some time. Drum corps has cost something since its inception. By definition, therefor, it's exclusionary. The current day cost is irrelevant; it's always been "expensive" to street kids with no money. Thank GOD (mostly white) men and women mortgaged their houses, sacrificed they personal lives, and dragged their families across the country providing a place for those poor kids to perform. "Poor" kids today have cell phones, and they have drum corps leadership of all races and from both sexes helping them find ways to march as they always have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Dixon Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, garfield said: Drum corps has cost something since its inception. By definition, therefor, it's exclusionary. The current day cost is irrelevant; it's always been "expensive" to street kids with no money. Thank GOD (mostly white) men and women mortgaged their houses, sacrificed they personal lives, and dragged their families across the country providing a place for those poor kids to perform. "Poor" kids today have cell phones, and they have drum corps leadership of all races and from both sexes helping them find ways to march as they always have. and they have go fund me - yeah go fund me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 22 minutes ago, dbc03 said: If stating and defending my opinions on the activity is "spewing hate" then maybe I'll change my username to Mt Vesuvius cause DCP is gonna be Pompeii 😁 I LOVE this reference. I wish I'd have thought of this many times. Kudos. (Except, of course, that your comments are not nearly strong enough to bury this Pompeii.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, garfield said: Drum corps has cost something since its inception. By definition, therefor, it's exclusionary. The current day cost is irrelevant; it's always been "expensive" to street kids with no money. Thank GOD (mostly white) men and women mortgaged their houses, sacrificed they personal lives, and dragged their families across the country providing a place for those poor kids to perform. "Poor" kids today have cell phones, and they have drum corps leadership of all races and from both sexes helping them find ways to march as they always have. Live about a 10 minute drive from the inner city.... why don’t you enlighten us with what “poor” kids are really like. And tell me what corps today help inner city kids.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weaklefthand4ever Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ghost said: When you add in travel expenses and fees for auditions and then camps, the $5,000 cost was probably passed years ago. It's been a "rich kid's game" for some time. Yep. I was with traveling choral group during my "formative years" from probably 8 or 9 years old until I was 12 or 13. That cost quite a bit of money as when I say travel, I mean world travel especially during the summer tour. Oddly enough, one of the other members of that choir a year or so behind me was David Starnes who went on to be a percussion caption head for several top DCI groups. By the time I got to DCI, my father said I would have to foot at least part of the bill if I wanted to march. I don't know how the MM's afford it now. It was high in 1987! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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