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Cadets and YEA new path forward


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13 hours ago, George Dixon said:

April was famous for picking folks for Cadets guard that just worked hard and showed promise - like the one who kept trying, practiced during breaks and then stayed after camp to help put all the equipment away. 

I feel like when we have discussions about drum corps being a rich kids game, etc etc., this is really what we are thinking about. Even when I marched in the late 80's, it was still a "show up, work harder than anyone else and LISTEN, and you'll end up where you are supposed to be." I really believe now that the level of talent and the difficulty in design and what the MM's are having to execute 1. Makes it easier to be picky and 2. Makes it necessary to be picky. 

If someone wants to argue with me they can, but I would urge people to think about something first. Those who marched in 60's and 70's laid the foundation for us that marched in the 80's and 90's. We then laid new building blocks for those to follow in the 00's and through today. The progression in design, difficulty of drill, electronics etc etc etc is natural. We shouldn't be ashamed of what drum corps is today but rather embrace it and have pride that WE HELPED BUILD THIS. The young men and women are not more talented today than they were "BITD." They do the same things we did...work hard, trust their staff and push themselves to do things they didn't know they could do. 

I draw a parallel (as I usually do...and yes, I know it's annoying,) to billiards. I played at the pro level for 2 years...a miserable 2 whole years. But I can tell you this. The greats of the 60's through the 90's were no less talented stringing 8 or 9 racks together then the cats now are stringing 8 or 9 racks together. People say that today's top players would wipe the floor with 80's players. The technology has changed in the tools we use now. It's not a different level of talent it's just a slightly different game. The guys (and gals) who played on tour in 80's and 90's laid the foundation for the folks playing at that level today. Yeah we had bigger pockets in the 90's. We also had shafts that were made of this amazing stuff called wood which would deflect the ball off of it's target line. Now they have smaller pockets but shafts made of carbon fiber which don't deflect. Slightly different game...same talent level.

 

I'll try not to digress anymore today but I can't promise anything because it's 8am and I'm at work..on a Sunday. 

Edited by Weaklefthand4ever
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14 hours ago, Jurassic Lancer said:

Once upon a time, MM’s performance at a specific show could make a huge difference in outcomes, even surpassing the design’s impact. For example, 1979 Troopers at DCI Prelims.

This.

We have gotten to the point where show design & season is awarded high scores, not the performance on any given night.  And it has been that way for a while - consider Star in 1991 - even Rondo on the telecast said they didn't have a good run at finals, while SCV & Cavies had great runs.  But Star won because of season & design, not performance on the field (my analysis, not Rondo's).

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34 minutes ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

This.

We have gotten to the point where show design & season is awarded high scores, not the performance on any given night.  And it has been that way for a while - consider Star in 1991 - even Rondo on the telecast said they didn't have a good run at finals, while SCV & Cavies had great runs.  But Star won because of season & design, not performance on the field (my analysis, not Rondo's).

I think that's a fair statement. I would certainly say that especially in the tick days, standing out of the formation like a 3rd nipple was a lot more damaging score wise than it is now. Scoring seems to be more "big picture" oriented. I would also say that when you get up into the top 3, there is more forgiveness for some fuzzy brass and percussion moments than there is in the bottom 1/2 of the top 12. But that's only my opinion. And I think we've talked before about the growth potential of a show point wise. There is a LOT of growth room design wise in many shows while at least to me, it's more difficult to grow a brass or percussion score by large numbers. Brass and percussion folks know what something SHOULD sound like I would think. It has to be harder to figure out the subtleties of a "show concept" design wise. 

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45 minutes ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

This.

We have gotten to the point where show design & season is awarded high scores, not the performance on any given night.  And it has been that way for a while - consider Star in 1991 - even Rondo on the telecast said they didn't have a good run at finals, while SCV & Cavies had great runs.  But Star won because of season & design, not performance on the field (my analysis, not Rondo's).

Oh gosh still? Even with the “bad run” Star was a mile better than second and third / while the crowd was cheering for anyone but star. If anything the scores were too close imo 

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1 hour ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

This.

We have gotten to the point where show design & season is awarded high scores, not the performance on any given night.  And it has been that way for a while - consider Star in 1991 - even Rondo on the telecast said they didn't have a good run at finals, while SCV & Cavies had great runs.  But Star won because of season & design, not performance on the field (my analysis, not Rondo's).

Yes. This is how it is now. Like many, I do not think this is a good thing. But I still support drum corps in general. Far too much emphasis on soft skills as opposed to hard skills. Hard skills are basically color guard, M & M, field drums, and brass. All include technical and performance. Pit percussion fits both hard and soft skills in my opinion, and are very important. The rest? - soft skills. ( props, amplification, general effect, and what is described as "show design") -- The hard skills are foundational and should comprise the significant majority of scoring outcomes. Everything else is along for the ride.

Bottom line - we are forgetting about actually marching as a valuable and judged part of drum corps. And difficult marching and playing together? Not even a judged factor anymore, objectively. Stand play, move, stand play move. No reward for risk. All good.

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8 minutes ago, rysa4 said:

Yes. This is how it is now. Like many, I do not think this is a good thing. But I still support drum corps in general. Far too much emphasis on soft skills as opposed to hard skills. Hard skills are basically color guard, M & M, field drums, and brass. All include technical and performance. Pit percussion fits both hard and soft skills in my opinion, and are very important. The rest? - soft skills. ( props, amplification, general effect, and what is described as "show design") -- The hard skills are foundational and should comprise the significant majority of scoring outcomes. Everything else is along for the ride.

Bottom line - we are forgetting about actually marching as a valuable and judged part of drum corps. And difficult marching and playing together? Not even a judged factor anymore, objectively. Stand play, move, stand play move. No reward for risk. All good.

I think that's part of the key. You still support the activity even if you don't necessarily agree with the direction of all the moving parts. I can get behind that 100%. I don't absolutely LOVE the new show design in a lot of cases, but I did notice something. I have sat and watched many a show (including ones I marched in,) on youtube with Britt. I'm 48 and she's 29. What I can say as an absolute is this: She is MUCH more interested in the newer "format" of shows than she is in shows from the 80's and 90's. Today's design holds her interest more and she is the epitome of the casual fan that we are looking for to put butts in seats. She has no drum corps background...just some HS band. She can appreciate what we did but it just doesn't light the same fire as the modern concepts of design do. It's an interesting tug of war to be certain. 

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1 minute ago, Weaklefthand4ever said:

I think that's part of the key. You still support the activity even if you don't necessarily agree with the direction of all the moving parts. I can get behind that 100%. I don't absolutely LOVE the new show design in a lot of cases, but I did notice something. I have sat and watched many a show (including ones I marched in,) on youtube with Britt. I'm 48 and she's 29. What I can say as an absolute is this: She is MUCH more interested in the newer "format" of shows than she is in shows from the 80's and 90's. Today's design holds her interest more and she is the epitome of the casual fan that we are looking for to put butts in seats. She has no drum corps background...just some HS band. She can appreciate what we did but it just doesn't light the same fire as the modern concepts of design do. It's an interesting tug of war to be certain. 

Fair point. Here is what I can offer as the issue:  What does this teach as a value system to the actual corps members? You work hard; your challenge, either musically or by physical challenge is greater; you know the technical challenge is greater and you achieve -- but the outcomes do not reflect what you and many others know to be true.

The mass appeal argument you make is clearly right; A theater show and theatrics certainly has more mass appeal than technical performance differences that most cannot appreciate or even perceive unless they are at the skill level needed to see it in their own areas. We celebrate Baryshnikov for a reason. 

My opinion: wrong value system.

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2 hours ago, George Dixon said:

Oh gosh still? Even with the “bad run” Star was a mile better than second and third / while the crowd was cheering for anyone but star. If anything the scores were too close imo 

Those of us on lower deck, side 2, last row at the base of the last stadium light (including 2 phantom alums & 1 Argonne Rebel alum) thought it would be Cavaliers, SCV, Phantom, with BS/Star/Cadets 4-6.

But what do we know  - we were not super-enlightened judges who know and understand Drum Corps more than we do.

 

Edited by IllianaLancerContra
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1 hour ago, rysa4 said:

Fair point. Here is what I can offer as the issue:  What does this teach as a value system to the actual corps members? You work hard; your challenge, either musically or by physical challenge is greater; you know the technical challenge is greater and you achieve -- but the outcomes do not reflect what you and many others know to be true.

The mass appeal argument you make is clearly right; A theater show and theatrics certainly has more mass appeal than technical performance differences that most cannot appreciate or even perceive unless they are at the skill level needed to see it in their own areas. We celebrate Baryshnikov for a reason. 

My opinion: wrong value system.

Very good points raised. I think you're right as far as a value system in the current judging situation. My HOPE...HOPE...is that we will eventually swing the pendulum back to a balance of the two. I think in this world, as in so many things we've seen on the outside, the theatrics just get old after a while and lose their flavor. 

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1 hour ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

Those of us on lower deck, side 2, last row at the base of the last stadium light (including 2 phantom alums & 1 Argonne Rebel alum) thought it would be Cavaliers, SCV, Phantom, with BS/Star/Cadets 4-6.

But what do we know  - we were not super-enlightened judges who know and understand Drum Corps more than we do.

Hey we all get to decide who we prefer. I thought Coats should have won last year and Crown should have been second or third. So I'm clearly "not-enlightened" as well. 91 - I thought no one was close to Star - JMO

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