hostrauser Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 On 5/12/2020 at 12:51 PM, MikeZ said: I feel the exact opposite. I thought BD was the best corps in 96, BD was the best corps in 99, and Cavaliers were the best corps in 2000. Of the 3, I feel 2000 was the one that could have legitimately been a tie. Mike Z 96 and 00 I can only go by video, but I was there in 99 and Vanguard absolutely brought it in Finals. Devils had a strong opener but then kind of a lackluster run after that. The effect gulf was 1. Vanguard, 2. Scouts, and then everyone else way, way, way behind them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hostrauser Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 On 5/12/2020 at 1:13 PM, N.E. Brigand said: Hailing from northeast Ohio as I do, it was pretty great on only my second ever Finals attendance, and this time (unlike 2012) in great seats where the sound wasn't horribly distorted, to see the local corps win it all. Total serendipity, since I had arranged to get that ticket well before the season started. That top three was something else. And "Downside Up" was such an entertaining show. I was rooting for it to win. If only Bluecoats' show hadn't been so influential. "Relentless" was executed so well and is more like what drum corps ought to be, in my opinion, and too often abandoned since. (Not by Crown, exactly, but their three subsequent shows just felt so random.) Early on in the season, someone pointed out that Crown's drill was pretty cramped toward the front, but it's wide open compared by comparison to the staging that so often has been rewarded since. I was there too in 2016, and definitely rooting for the Coats to win. They certainly had the crowd engagement aspect locked up. Perhaps this is one of those instances where audio/video recordings can only convey so much. But the more I watch/listen to and review the 2016 shows, the better Crown's show seems to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito365 Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 36 minutes ago, hostrauser said: I was there too in 2016, and definitely rooting for the Coats to win. They certainly had the crowd engagement aspect locked up. Perhaps this is one of those instances where audio/video recordings can only convey so much. But the more I watch/listen to and review the 2016 shows, the better Crown's show seems to me. Crown had execution. Bluecoats had effect. We all know what wins these days... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg_orangecounty Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 19 hours ago, jwillis35 said: To me this is an "old wives tale" kind of thing to say. I see where you are coming from, because a lot of people thought that way back in the day, but in order to beat a defending champion you simply have to score higher. You don't have to decidedly beat them. That is a falsehood. Winning by .1 or 1 is winning. DCI judges do not care what you did the year before. They don't spot BD 5 additional points because they won the previous year. Other corps are not warned that if they wish to beat BD they will have to beat them by 5.1 points in order to get the .1 win. The only thing that matters is your current show. I felt 27th Lancers deserved the title in 1980. They had the best overall show. BD was great and clean and had lovely music arrangements. They were a very close 2nd place to me. In a close contest Alabama is going to get a good spot on 4th and 1, La Bron James is going to draw a foul, and Tim Anderson is going to get a ball even when a pitch nicks the corner. There are examples of implicit bias which favors past success in every walk of life, especially when subjectivity is involved. Drum Corps is no exception. It's not an "old wives tail", "slotting", or "spotting points", it's just human nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 5 hours ago, hostrauser said: 96 and 00 I can only go by video, but I was there in 99 and Vanguard absolutely brought it in Finals. Devils had a strong opener but then kind of a lackluster run after that. The effect gulf was 1. Vanguard, 2. Scouts, and then everyone else way, way, way behind them. agreed in 99 SCV had the run at finals, and BD didn't 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim K Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 On 5/13/2020 at 11:11 PM, greg_orangecounty said: Not a Concord honk whatsoever, and I loved 2-7, but to knock off the reigning champs you need to be decidedly better. I didn't see that, and I don't understand why so many people feel as you do. And Spirit over Bayonne......!? Spirit's horn line soared that night but Bayonne's drum line that year was one for the ages. I always believed Bayonne's Color Guard held them back from placing higher during their prime. Today you have to be decidedly better than reigning champions, but I don’t think you had to be decidedly better than the previous champions back in the day. I am reminded of 1978’s SCV which was not decidedly better than 1977 Blue Devils or Phantom for that matter. I think the same could be said for SCV in 1981. I was not in Birmingham in 1980, but I remember the season well. I had my license and was old enough to drive myself to shows, as long as I was back home before curfew, I could go to as many local shows as I wanted. I probably saw 27th live six or seven times from early season local shows to CYO Nationals and when that show was performing on all cylinders, it was amazing. Blue Devils had a great show, no question, but it lacked a certain something. Maybe that’s how I wanted to see it. Today, we have very few videos of either 27th and BD in 1980, and the recorded legacy is the PBS broadcast which did not capture either corps all that well. I think Bridgemen fared well recording wise and supposedly a big reason why Bridgemen in 1980 was included in the Legends DVD over 27th was the quality of the recording which made it easier to remaster. In the early days Spirit was always viewed as a horn line that had drums and a guard that happened to march. I can remember hearing the critique that Spirit focused solely on the horn line at the expense of other areas though this was more the case in 79 than 80. I agree that Bridgemen did not use the guard that well but I think another factor that held them back was the uniform. It’s iconic and original but the corps was always criticized for not being “clean.” As I watch the DVD’s today, they were clean, but the uniforms didn’t help. That being said, I can’t imagine Bridgemen without that uniform. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim K Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 16 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said: I agree that this is an unspoken requirement based on unconscious biases that favor the known (it's what Bruckner8 calls "competitive inertia"), but I wish it weren't so. I have heard it said in the skating, diving, and gymnastics world that you are rewarded the following year for what you did the previous year. This may be the opinion of television commentators more than actual fact. I think you see this to some degree in drum corps Or at least it is perceived that way. I can recall folks making this claim in 2013 when Crown won, believing they were robbed in 2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 9 hours ago, Tim K said: I have heard it said in the skating, diving, and gymnastics world that you are rewarded the following year for what you did the previous year. This may be the opinion of television commentators more than actual fact. I think you see this to some degree in drum corps Or at least it is perceived that way. I can recall folks making this claim in 2013 when Crown won, believing they were robbed in 2012. I think you hit on a good point. It's probably more perceived by the audience or commentators (as in the case of things like pro sports or Olympics). And in pro sports I would agree that sometimes the best athletes gets the benefit of the doubt in certain situations. In drum corps judging I have never got the impression that judges are rewarding a corps for where they placed the prior year. At the beginning of a season I know many feel certain corps get the benefit of the doubt until judges have a better idea of how each corps is really doing. To me, judges are trying to reward what they see and hear now, not last year. The Crown 2013 example that was brought up is a good one because I do remember some fans feeling that they were "due." It was their time and they were denied the year before. In reality Crown was just the best corps in 2013 by season's end and that is where the judges put them. I liked Crown in 2012, but BD was better and the judges rewarded them. BD clearly marched a better show from a visual standpoint. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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