rysa4 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, jwillis35 said: This may all be true, and I will take your word for it; but...to be honest even if the judges thought Garfield was the one corps that truly had a championship caliber show it must be noted that Garfield was extremely dirty early season. They had to hose some things and really clean to get that beast to the level it was come Finals. There was no guarantee they would clean that show to a high level, and I do think SCV had a championship caliber show. They just ran into a corps that was pushing the envelope to a point that once the show was cleaner it became evident that SCV was in for a fight. I remember seeing SCV and Garfield in Canton in August and I think SCV won by 1 point. Then I saw them again at U.S. Open in Marion, OH and Garfield beat SCV in prelims and they tied at Finals. It was at prelims that I saw the Garfield that made my head explode with the demand and artistry in music and visual. At that point I was shocked they tied at Finals, but I had a feeling that Garfield would win their 3rd in a row at that point. Spot on!!! Super dirty! Demand wasn't rewarded much despite the gap there. And it was a tear down scoring system back then not a build up system like it is today. At that point no one had ever put anything like Jeremiah and that type of drill on a DCI field ever! Trust me--I know! I marched it! ( was not my first year in DCI although with another corps before) So let me share with you another 1985 fascinoma. Anywhere Garfield performed, all of the drill designers from bands and corps disappeared from the stands. Why? They would all gather at the top of the stadium to watch the drill unfold from above. Some just to gawk and have their jaws drop and others to learn and take a lot of notes. The Marion Ohio US Open show was a very interesting turning point in the season. And you are quite correct, out of nowhere, and all of a sudden, Garfield beat SCV in Prelims by a wide margin. NO one saw it coming in the DCI administrative world. It was all going to be a neat and tidy season with SCV winning as they had done all season. So here's is what really happened in between prelims and finals--phone calls..and/...voila!! we were tied on purpose in finals. I have the paper recaps in a box somewhere. It is hilarious to look at. Basically everything was evened out across the board in finals ( there were something like 9 scoring columns FYI) and in one column Garfield was put 2 tenths up ( or something like that) and in another column SCV was put 2 tenths up. An amazing mathematical outcome! Ties happen in modern drumcorps, but not that cleanly on a soresheet, and not in that season either. It was all good. From that point on, the competitive season actually ended as far as who was the best corps. It was out of the bag. When you have the most difficult show and you have more headroom to go, and you arrive on top at the US Open already, the season belongs to you. Now--these days it is a way different deal. Things do not work that way anymore at all. You have WGI and indoor percussion and a concentration of talent among a smaller number of corps so the timelines and effort/result stuff is a different scene. But back then, there just was no way for the other corps to catch up; they didn't have the shows with the degree of difficulty or demand necessary to move their scores up to keep pace or overtake the Cadets. They were "maxed." too early. I used to call this the " The Phantom Regiment Syndrome" when I was younger. Zingali/Klesch/Hannum/Sylvester/Twiggs and the other geniuses won the year with the show they had created and the members just worked really hard and kept a positive attitude. Back then it was called "pushing the boundaries" --not an easy thing but a character defining experience. Again--not gonna win popular points I know--but hey -- why not share what happened 35 years ago? It ain't a JFK conspiracy controversy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rysa4 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Interesting that you expreienced Marion Ohio and the " tie." YOu saw it! BY the way, it is super cool that you and I were in the same place on the same day in 1985. Of course I have no idea who you are but hey...cool. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 On 7/7/2020 at 9:24 PM, rysa4 said: The SCV show was strong until 1:48 in. Then it picks up at 13.25 for 45 seconds. In between, It could have been the Freelancers or any other good show from that year. Repeating myself, but during the ten minutes or so you're writing off: They changed pants. That move was so legendary that I (who never saw a drum corps show until 1989) heard about it from multiple people who were still in awe, years after they saw it, long before I ever even saw SCV live for the first time much later.. When I finally had the means to buy DCI's "legacy collection" videos in the late 2000s and start to catch up on what I missed, you can be sure that this was one moment I was most eager to see, and in my opinion, it doesn't disapoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 2 hours ago, jwillis35 said: This may all be true, and I will take your word for it; but...to be honest even if the judges thought Garfield was the one corps that truly had a championship caliber show it must be noted that Garfield was extremely dirty early season. They had to hose some things and really clean to get that beast to the level it was come Finals. There was no guarantee they would clean that show to a high level, and I do think SCV had a championship caliber show. They just ran into a corps that was pushing the envelope to a point that once the show was cleaner it became evident that SCV was in for a fight. I remember seeing SCV and Garfield in Canton in August and I think SCV won by 1 point. Then I saw them again at U.S. Open in Marion, OH and Garfield beat SCV in prelims and they tied at Finals. It was at prelims that I saw the Garfield that made my head explode with the demand and artistry in music and visual. At that point I was shocked they tied at Finals, but I had a feeling that Garfield would win their 3rd in a row at that point. SCV peaked at Allentown 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 1 hour ago, rysa4 said: Spot on!!! Super dirty! Demand wasn't rewarded much despite the gap there. And it was a tear down scoring system back then not a build up system like it is today. At that point no one had ever put anything like Jeremiah and that type of drill on a DCI field ever! Trust me--I know! I marched it! ( was not my first year in DCI although with another corps before) So let me share with you another 1985 fascinoma. Anywhere Garfield performed, all of the drill designers from bands and corps disappeared from the stands. Why? They would all gather at the top of the stadium to watch the drill unfold from above. Some just to gawk and have their jaws drop and others to learn and take a lot of notes. The Marion Ohio US Open show was a very interesting turning point in the season. And you are quite correct, out of nowhere, and all of a sudden, Garfield beat SCV in Prelims by a wide margin. NO one saw it coming in the DCI administrative world. It was all going to be a neat and tidy season with SCV winning as they had done all season. So here's is what really happened in between prelims and finals--phone calls..and/...voila!! we were tied on purpose in finals. I have the paper recaps in a box somewhere. It is hilarious to look at. Basically everything was evened out across the board in finals ( there were something like 9 scoring columns FYI) and in one column Garfield was put 2 tenths up ( or something like that) and in another column SCV was put 2 tenths up. An amazing mathematical outcome! Ties happen in modern drumcorps, but not that cleanly on a soresheet, and not in that season either. It was all good. From that point on, the competitive season actually ended as far as who was the best corps. It was out of the bag. When you have the most difficult show and you have more headroom to go, and you arrive on top at the US Open already, the season belongs to you. Now--these days it is a way different deal. Things do not work that way anymore at all. You have WGI and indoor percussion and a concentration of talent among a smaller number of corps so the timelines and effort/result stuff is a different scene. But back then, there just was no way for the other corps to catch up; they didn't have the shows with the degree of difficulty or demand necessary to move their scores up to keep pace or overtake the Cadets. They were "maxed." too early. I used to call this the " The Phantom Regiment Syndrome" when I was younger. Zingali/Klesch/Hannum/Sylvester/Twiggs and the other geniuses won the year with the show they had created and the members just worked really hard and kept a positive attitude. Back then it was called "pushing the boundaries" --not an easy thing but a character defining experience. Again--not gonna win popular points I know--but hey -- why not share what happened 35 years ago? It ain't a JFK conspiracy controversy. build up started in 84.which is why championship scores went from 94 to 98 in 2 years 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 9 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said: Repeating myself, but during the ten minutes or so you're writing off: They changed pants. That move was so legendary that I (who never saw a drum corps show until 1989) heard about it from multiple people who were still in awe, years after they saw it, long before I ever even saw SCV live for the first time much later.. When I finally had the means to buy DCI's "legacy collection" videos in the late 2000s and start to catch up on what I missed, you can be sure that this was one moment I was most eager to see, and in my opinion, it doesn't disapoint. I agree that Cadets were quite a powerhouse in '85. But the show IMO was something to admire, but not love. The drill was incredible, the brass arrangements were incredible but in the end, it didn't pull heartstrings. Vanguard had a knack for pulling you into their performance. The intensity of their opener alone was more than the entirety of many another program. It's not a criticism - but an observation on so many Vanguard programs of that era. Grover's Corners so eloquently shows Vanguard at the finest. Subtle and beautiful. No need to hit viewers over the head to make them join Vanguard on the field. So many have joined Vanguard on the field in tribute to how their show and performance made them feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jthomas666 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 36 minutes ago, Continental said: I agree that Cadets were quite a powerhouse in '85. But the show IMO was something to admire, but not love. The drill was incredible, the brass arrangements were incredible but in the end, it didn't pull heartstrings. Vanguard had a knack for pulling you into their performance. The intensity of their opener alone was more than the entirety of many another program. It's not a criticism - but an observation on so many Vanguard programs of that era. Grover's Corners so eloquently shows Vanguard at the finest. Subtle and beautiful. No need to hit viewers over the head to make them join Vanguard on the field. So many have joined Vanguard on the field in tribute to how their show and performance made them feel. That might be pushing it a bit. Vanguard definitely had a lush arrangement of Copland, but the Cadet's performance of "Make Our Garden Grow" is one of my all time favorites. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllianaLancerContra Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, rysa4 said: Edited July 9, 2020 by IllianaLancerContra deleted because moot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rysa4 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 11 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: build up started in 84.which is why championship scores went from 94 to 98 in 2 years Yes and no. The psychology of the " tick" system was still in place at the time, and the judges tapes reflected that. So when we talk about a show being "dirty" despite itself, that is what we are talking about...the tear down system. Perhaps like yourself, I was marching in DCI through that era of transition ( 1981 to 1985 time period to be exact). In this particular discussion, I overheard a LOT of phone calls that year ( still had pay phones back then and no cells--so conversations were basically glued to stadium walls and school buildings). Tear down system functionally in approach. "peaking" meant nothing left to clean for the most part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rysa4 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Continental said: I agree that Cadets were quite a powerhouse in '85. But the show IMO was something to admire, but not love. The drill was incredible, the brass arrangements were incredible but in the end, it didn't pull heartstrings. Vanguard had a knack for pulling you into their performance. The intensity of their opener alone was more than the entirety of many another program. It's not a criticism - but an observation on so many Vanguard programs of that era. Grover's Corners so eloquently shows Vanguard at the finest. Subtle and beautiful. No need to hit viewers over the head to make them join Vanguard on the field. So many have joined Vanguard on the field in tribute to how their show and performance made them feel. Agreed! And here's a secret -- SCV is my absolute favorite corps. 1985 was a VERY weak show for them. As one poster said -- they...changed...pants. And that's what we remember. Horn players going through a velcro tunnel. Yes memorable...but ya don't get points for that other than a GE moment. Any corps could have changed their pants in a velcro tunnel. Nobody at the time could have marched/taught that Cadets show or certainly designed it. No one. Sylvester/Zingali? Nothing even close. BY the way--their opener was AWESOME! I loved it! It DID pull me in--but at 1:48 into the show? Done. The vid is in this thread. Check it out. 2018 SCV for me was a highpoint for DCI in its entirety. ( I go back to shows in the 70s as far as my memory/experience). GIven Covid-19-- that may be it for a DCI highpoint. Have no clue how the current activity in its current form will continue. Gonna need a lot of modifications going forward. The pulling on your heartstrings comment goes straight to the matter and the challenge/controversy at that time. The show was uncommon and not nearly as accessible to the average drum corps fan of the day as what had been the formula prior to that. So I agree with you and respect your point. Many people felt exactly as you do. Edited July 9, 2020 by rysa4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.