Cadets Establish Equality And Inclusion Committee

[JimF-LowBari]

7 minutes ago, skevinp said:

You might want to brush up on your reading.  

Mind filling us in on what you mean? Only guess I have is recent SCOTUS ruling but tired of one sentence, no detail responses here today. Or better yet know anyone who wants to be the guinea pig in testing out this ruling? 

Edited July 7, 2020 by JimF-LowBari

[skevinp]

2 hours ago, JimF-LowBari said:

When the “T” in the state gets there... not in my lifetime I’m afraid. Pennsylvania T means Pittsburgh and Philly at bottom corners are urban and more liberal. Then with some exceptions the middle and top (T shape) are rural and “you ain’t from around here are ya”. (And used to go to family reunion halfway between Williamsport and NY state line In the T and had to watch what I said 😒. Don’t think some of them had even seen a minority in person)

You aren’t exactly making a strong case that stated policy changes behavior, given that DCP has a policy about political subject matter and your choice to bash people along political lines flagrantly mocks that policy.  

[JimF-LowBari]

24 minutes ago, skevinp said:

You aren’t exactly making a strong case that stated policy changes behavior, given that DCP has a policy about political subject matter and your choice to bash people along political lines flagrantly mocks that policy.  

WTF are you talking about? I never said that policy changes behavior. I am saying that changes to policy/rules can make it easier to remove people from an organization that don’t follow the policy/rules (edit: and what rules to follow). As for bashing along political lines lmao.... I’m relating my experiences being around my relatives north of Williamsport. And that “T” in PA has been known for decades. 
 

Edit: trivia from town my relatives are from and some still live. Town has lost over 10% of its population each census since the 1960s. IOW hardly anyone from the outside world moves there. Also latest census has 98.94% of the population listing themselves as Caucasian. IOW not much of a chance to see what diversity means.

Edited July 7, 2020 by JimF-LowBari

[skevinp]

19 minutes ago, JimF-LowBari said:

WTF are you talking about? I never said that policy changes behavior. I am saying that changes to policy/rules can make it easier to remove people from an organization that don’t follow the policy/rules (edit: and what rules to follow). As for bashing along political lines lmao.... I’m relating my experiences being around my relatives north of Williamsport. And that “T” in PA has been known for decades. 
 

Edit: trivia from town my relatives are from and some still live. Town has lost over 10% of its population each census since the 1960s. IOW hardly anyone from the outside world moves there. Also latest census has 98.94% of the population listing themselves as Caucasian. IOW not much of a chance to see what diversity means.

Please don’t be hostile.  I will leave it to the mods to decide whether your other post was political in nature, since you think it is so funny to have made it.  

[JimF-LowBari]

23 minutes ago, skevinp said:

Please don’t be hostile.  I will leave it to the mods to decide whether your other post was political in nature, since you think it is so funny to have made it.  

Ok what did I say that you think was so political? If it was “ya ain’t from around here are ya” I’ve run into that from a couple of different towns in the boonies from different parts of PA. Besides family’s town have visited towns near my college and towns of friends I have made though the years. Soon as some people hear you are from the state capital (and all them minorities) you can see good many of them start to pucker something up. And that goes for some relatives too. Just one helluva suspicion of outsiders...

Edited July 7, 2020 by JimF-LowBari

[cixelsyd]

4 hours ago, JimF-LowBari said:

Ok my definition of “inclusion”: making sure anyone who joins the group feels welcome and is safe. This means safe from any harassment from group leaders and OTHER MEMBERS of the group.

wow such a horrible idea.... sure glad we didn’t have this where I worked... oh wait we did....

The dictionary definition of inclusion is "the act of including". 

We have other words for what we do after that to make the included feel welcome, prevent harassment, ensure fair treatment, and establish codes of conduct for everyone involved.  And THOSE things are not horrible ideas.  Why would you think that of me?

Since it seems anyone with the slightest nuance of opinion is immediately presumed a hater of all virtues, let me be clear.  I am proud of the drum corps activity.  We have been ahead of the curve on racial justice, ahead of the curve on gender justice, and so far ahead on other constituencies that there was no curve yet.  In my own face-to-face experiences, drum corps (and specifically among them, the Cadets being one fine example) have been the best institutional role model I have for minority acceptance.  And even saying all that, if a corps or circuit wants to improve on that, they have my support.  Continuous improvement is, after all, one of the life lessons of this activity.

At some point, though, there is a distinction between equal opportunities and equal outcomes.  Usually, when buzzwords like "diversity" and "inclusion" appear, that indicates an interest in equal outcomes.  And usually, pursuing equal outcomes devolves into reverse discrimination... which is just another form of discrimination.

(And again, let me be clear.  I oppose discrimination, in all its forms.  Therefore, I prefer equal opportunities.)

[JimF-LowBari]

6 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:

The dictionary definition of inclusion is "the act of including". 

We have other words for what we do after that to make the included feel welcome, prevent harassment, ensure fair treatment, and establish codes of conduct for everyone involved.  And THOSE things are not horrible ideas.  Why would you think that of me?

Since it seems anyone with the slightest nuance of opinion is immediately presumed a hater of all virtues, let me be clear.  I am proud of the drum corps activity.  We have been ahead of the curve on racial justice, ahead of the curve on gender justice, and so far ahead on other constituencies that there was no curve yet.  In my own face-to-face experiences, drum corps (and specifically among them, the Cadets being one fine example) have been the best institutional role model I have for minority acceptance.  And even saying all that, if a corps or circuit wants to improve on that, they have my support.  Continuous improvement is, after all, one of the life lessons of this activity.

At some point, though, there is a distinction between equal opportunities and equal outcomes.  Usually, when buzzwords like "diversity" and "inclusion" appear, that indicates an interest in equal outcomes.  And usually, pursuing equal outcomes devolves into reverse discrimination... which is just another form of discrimination.

(And again, let me be clear.  I oppose discrimination, in all its forms.  Therefore, I prefer equal opportunities.)

I wasn’t talking about you... actually I agree with “of a corps or circuit wants to improve.... my support”. I just don’t see why people are jumping all over this without knowing the details of what the Cadets are trying to do. Or at least no one is coming up with details here. I read it as POSSIBLY the Cadets want to make sure no harassment occurs from other members but again no details. Which would fall under your “continuous improvement “.

Edited July 7, 2020 by JimF-LowBari

[dans]

3 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:

The dictionary definition of inclusion is "the act of including". 

We have other words for what we do after that to make the included feel welcome, prevent harassment, ensure fair treatment, and establish codes of conduct for everyone involved.  And THOSE things are not horrible ideas.  Why would you think that of me?

Since it seems anyone with the slightest nuance of opinion is immediately presumed a hater of all virtues, let me be clear.  I am proud of the drum corps activity.  We have been ahead of the curve on racial justice, ahead of the curve on gender justice, and so far ahead on other constituencies that there was no curve yet.  In my own face-to-face experiences, drum corps (and specifically among them, the Cadets being one fine example) have been the best institutional role model I have for minority acceptance.  And even saying all that, if a corps or circuit wants to improve on that, they have my support.  Continuous improvement is, after all, one of the life lessons of this activity.

At some point, though, there is a distinction between equal opportunities and equal outcomes.  Usually, when buzzwords like "diversity" and "inclusion" appear, that indicates an interest in equal outcomes.  And usually, pursuing equal outcomes devolves into reverse discrimination... which is just another form of discrimination.

(And again, let me be clear.  I oppose discrimination, in all its forms.  Therefore, I prefer equal opportunities.)

Thank you for saying this. You are spot on! There is a big distinction between equal opportunities and equal outcomes. Equal opportunities = liberty. Equal outcomes is the opposite of liberty.

[JimF-LowBari]

2 minutes ago, dans said:

Thank you for saying this. You are spot on! There is a big distinction between equal opportunities and equal outcomes. Equal opportunities = liberty. Equal outcomes is the opposite of liberty.

So does anyone on DCP know exactly what the Cadets are trying to do. Not guesses, not letting personal opinions get in the way, not fixating on buzzwords.... Does anyone have from corps management WHY they are making changes and WHAT they hope to achieve.

[NewToPosting]

True story:  I did not audition for the Cadets colorguard because before auditions, some horn members were discussing on IRC's #drumcorps chat (before hashtags were a thing, this was mid-90's) about the "queers" in the guard and avoiding them in the showers.  I didn't want to go through whatever those vets were willing to dish out.

The world was a different place then, 25 years ago.  As a 16 year old who had never left a small town, I assumed the whole corps felt that way.  With some perspective, I now know otherwise and that of course, there would have been an open, accepting environment.

Things have changed dramatically since then, but how many trans kids might want to march at the Cadets and not know how to feel using public bathrooms, going into states that have laws preventing them from using the bathroom of their identity?  Anyone who has marched with black people will know what they face when corps travel through racist areas.  

I applaud Denise and the Cadets for just opening up a space to have these conversations and to attract talent by welcoming them and learning to avoid what might cause them not to show up.  It can only help them!