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Cavaliers Sound Quality


Penguin

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Some of these posts really make me laugh.

To the untrained ear, the Phantom Regiment brassline is wonderful. They play with raw emotion and a volume that is unmatched. They play loud...really loud.

What people don't hear is the balance issues, ensemble clarity issues, and lack of a true concept of sound from person to person. They do get some credit for what they do because frankly, it doesn't matter how much junk is in your sound, as long as the ENTIRE line sounds the same. I hope that makes sense.

The Cavaliers brass line, in MY opinion, has a far superior sound. The have a true ensemble balance from section to section. When they play loud, you hear all four voices evenly, which is what true balance is. I don't think the "BLEND" like some people say....they don't want to "blend", because if you think about it, BLENDING is just mixing everything up together, rather than matching and balancing. Their concept of sound is very pure, and they WILL NOT sacrifice quality of sound for volume. Listen to the big chords...you hear all voices. Listen to the first big part of the third tune...the articulation was amazing.

Regiment, when they play loud, have a tendency to have people sticking out. In the 80s and 90s, it was usually a baritone or euphonium that would stick out (usually because they used a few euphs for leads, and in my opinion, those horns were not meant for that and they could not handle it), but this year the stick outs tended more to be soprano and mellophone. Listen to when they do a quick crescendo....people come out of the ensemble sound when they do that, simply because they are not listening and balancing with the rest of the line. The first big crescendo in "wild nights" was a great example of that. Also, if you listen, they have attack and release issues. Even the very first note they played was not together. Pay special attention to the last big note (the unison) of that tune...the intonation is not very good....there are many different concepts of sound within the line.

Regiments line is very exciting to the general audience. Cavies line is very exciting to the higher end listener who is excited about a line that can do everything and do it well. Its all a matter of taste, but what the Cavies are doing is going to win as long as the judges really know what to listen for.

"The Matrix" was fast and entertaining, but in the long run, its not going to win an Oscar over "American Beauty".

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First off, the whole premise of this thread is just ridiculous, and I'm not referring to the notion that the Cavaliers sound bad, because they've sounded incredible these last few years. But, to say that Phantom Regiment has ever sounded incredible and has played with the best tone in the activity is just preposterous.

Cheezedogg...from reading dcp for a long time, I know that you marched with the Marion Glory Cadets, correct? Well, no offense to you or your corps, but are you really going to challenge the opinion of someone who has marched with one of the most talented hornlines in DCI history (of course, I'm talking about Star)?

I think Mr. 81.3 has it right.

I love Regiment for their exciting shows and good music, but not for their brass sound.

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what does me marching with a D3 corps and him a D1 corps have to do with anything? I know lots of people that have played with great ensemebles and know nothing about sound quality, and vice versa, people from bad ensembles that know exactly how to make a good sound and what it is. So i'm sorry you feel this way.

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I'm gonna get railed here, but how could anyone ever put tone quality and Phantom in the same sentence. They sound great when they're playing softly, but when they open up it's like white noise. If I didn't know any better, I'd bet that their instructors don't teach them to listen to each other and to balance and blend the sound at ALL dynamic levels. It's almost like it's a contest to see if you can drowned out the guy next to you no matter how crass the sound becomes. It's funny cuz they could play louder with less effort if they'd learn to implement good individual tone quality with a balanced and blended sound built from the contras up instead of sops down.

Sorry PR...love you guys but you don't know how good you can be.

THANK YOU!!!!!

god, finally someone has some musical sense. geez...

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81.3, I think you summed it up in a nut shell.

CorpsPhan, thanks for the kind words but take it easy on Cheezedog. I do have to disagree with you on one point. Star of Indiana definitely did not have the most talented horn lines of all time. We didn't even have the most talented horn lines in our time. We just had a very simple and precise method for doing things and we executed it. I was shocked when I came to my first camp and heard a whole bunch of vets who sounded like honkers. A lot of these guys wouldn't have made my region high school band back in my home state of Texas. Don't get me wrong, we did have some really talented people but we had no where near the individual talent as BD and PR.

What I came to learn was that even a honker can contribute on 3rd part if they play in time, move the feet with the DM (not listening for time), breath without capping the breath, play with a full/supported sound, attack with a dah, and always play within the ensemble building from the contras up. That's it. By playing in tune, with good tone quality and balance we were able to be about as loud as Phantom even though individually we were not playing as loud. We were able to get overtones to work to our advantage.

I always thought it was ashame that Phantom didn't seem to follow these simple rules on a consistent basis. They had talent to spare and great music to play.

Cheezedog, don't take offense to corpsfan. I've known some very talented individuals from DII/III corps. In fact, most of the very best dc musicians I've known all started in DIII.

As for where I get my opinion, all you need to do is listen to PR '93 to see where I'm coming from. In particular, listen for the sop that hangs a release about 1 full second (can't remember which tune this happened on). That's just an example of the carelessness that is pervasive. Listen for the baritones in the closer. They are b#@ch smacking the notes all over the place. No concern for tone quality, balance, blend, or timing and only a concern for volume. I loved Fire of Eternal Glory that year. Their low brass at the beginning was impeccable, but then they opened it up and the sonority and tone quality completely changed. Why? I can't figure it out.

I will say that I listened to a clip from 88 for the first time yesterday and was very impressed. I have to say that that's the best I've heard them. Of course their caption head left after that year and was our bari tech when I was at star.

My opinions really come from '93 and earlier. I've gone to shows since then but have not purchased a tape or CD since 93 so I can't speak for what's been going on the past few years accurately.

I like Phantom a lot. I just see so much potential that seems to be distracted by the pursuit of volume.

Edited by Medeabrass
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I wonder what would happen if Cavaliers played shostakovich. Would people still feel the way they do about their hornline? Or what if phantom played anything The Cavaliers have played the last 3 or so years. Would people still think the same about phantom's brass? I think people are basing their choice for "best hornline" on the musical styles the corps are chosing. I would like to hear Cavies try some shostakovich, and hear phantom do something like Cavaliers have been. I wonder if Cavaliers could use the same power as phantom, or if phantom could use the same balance between voices and colors (not only between brass members but percussion as well) that Cavies do, and use the same pure brass sounds that Cavaliers' music calls for. I think after hearing that I would know, in my opinion, which corps holds the best hornline.

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Every corps out there has different means of approaching their technique and how it relates to their overall sound. A lot of corps out there now are doing similar warmups and such, but very few of them are relating what they practice in their technque programs to what they do when they are on the field. A lot of that can be due in part to the increased individual responsibility towards the movement program.

The Cavaliers have done a great job in turning their brass program into something really amazing in the last 4 or 5 years. Their overall low brass sound has been the bulk of what has improved. That has given them a much better balance as a hornline. IMO I think the Bb horns realy benefited them here.

Phantom has always been a low brass heavy corps and no offense to anyone alums or current members out there, but in nearly every impact point of the show, at least one person tends to get a bit overzealous with their volume and that leads to a break down in tone quality and intonation. Most of us realize also that by overplaying the instrument it is also very hard to play with a good sense of timing. Their overall sound is very good, it is the one or two individuals that cause some things to be out of whack.

You can argue that this same thing happens with every corps, which given todays recording it is very easy to hear these things. I wouldn't judge sound quality based on recording however, no matter how fine the recordings may be.

The way each corps arranges it's music also has to do with their particular sound. The Blue Devils for example use a lot more of the upper extremities in their trumpets, mellos, and bari's. That has to do with the jazz idiom they are playing. Also they tend to open up the lower trumpets, mellos, and baris. Stacking the chords a certain way opens up a different overtone series which ultimately contributes to how a particular hornline sounds. A hornlin elike BD which is not onyl having these higher overtones is also in a sense doubling it with a lead voice, making that pitch more prominent and giveng them a top heavy sound.

Th Cadets tend to do something similar but keep a stronger mid horn prominence. SCV does it with its mid voices and bari voices.

Anyhow i won't give my opinion of my personal favorite hornline, I am biased just like everyone else afterall. Take care all and best of luck in 04!

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81.3 and Medeabrass, you are officially my heroes!!!! That's exactly what I have wanted to say ever since I saw my first post on how beautiful PR's hornline sound is. I really just did not know how to put it in words. I love PR for their exciting and entertaining shows, but definitely not for their tone quality or volume.

B)

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81.3

Regiments line is very exciting to the general audience. Cavies line is very exciting to the higher end listener who is excited about a line that can do everything and do it well. Its all a matter of taste, but what the Cavies are doing is going to win as long as the judges really know what to listen for.

Let me see if I got this right. Since I like Phantom's sound better than Cavies I must be an unsophisticated, neanderthal eared, general audience member incapable of appreciating the higher end sonorities produced by the only hornline in history to produce beautifully intoned sounds for an entire show????

Many people that played a bugle, including myself, have spent years continuing to perform on their instrument(s) in many different venues and styles and are extremely capable of discerning "higher end" musical performances. To imply that those whom prefer Phantom's sound and style over the Cavies are less musically sophisticated is arrogant beyond description!

When did it become wrong to play a brass instrument very loudly with full body, good intonation and edge (and on a football field at that!)????? My god man, go get a copy of Chicago Symphony doing Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra conducted by Reiner from the early 60's (1963 or 1961) and tell me those brass players are not playing that music the way GOD intended it to be played.

Yes, I appreciate what it takes to do what the Cavies have done with their sound. I sat next to a friend who is a Cavies alum at finals this past year and he kept commenting how the brass sounded like a big fat organ. He was right. It was beautiful. But a whole show of it is BORING and PRETENTIOUS. Ok you can do that, NOW show us what else your brass instruments can do, BECAUSE THEY ARE CAPABLE OF MUCH MORE!!!! That's why Phantom was tops in my mind. They did it all and pushed the envelope a bit. Frankly, that kind of risk should be better rewarded by the judges; it certainly was by the rest of us 'general fans.'

Edited by mosthumbleone
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Personally, the intonation of the Cavies line sounds nearly flawless to me. Especially this past year in the baris. I nearly crap my pants every time I hear it. The approach in teaching they use is based on techniques entirely different from other corps and vice versa. Teal uses a very similar technique, (as McGahey is our consultant) and we focus on intonation and balance inside the contra line. If the contra line as a whole cannot support the ensemble at a FFF, then we don't play it. We hear a common saying all year, "don't sacifice your sound to the volume gods". I hear that with Cavies, one can really pick out any voice with ease.

Now I'm not saying that PR does this. But it does get annoying to hear individuals "overhype".This past year it was a good year for their hornline no doubt. But when they open up in their shows, they tend to get fuzzy, to my ear at least. Listening to their shows throughout the 90's I hear it regularly. Though they play with more emotion, and I can really connect with the show on that level. I'd go on, but it would be a rehash of previously stated ideas.

I tend to agree with Medeabrass. Sound should be built from the bottom up. And playing with control. I've been taught to play well within my limits and not to cross that line. It seems to me that hornlines who stick to that concept are much more mature. Not to say that PR's hornline isn't, they are IMO playing some of the toughest material put on the field.

In the end it's apples and oranges really. Each line has it's style and sound. I respect Phantom for their emotion, and the technicality of the music they play. I like the Cavies line for the intonation and balance. Which is inherently different, due in part to their musical selections. JMHO

Edited by Phirefenix
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