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Cavaliers Sound Quality


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Regiments line is very exciting to the general audience. Cavies line is very exciting to the higher end listener who is excited about a line that can do everything and do it well. Its all a matter of taste, but what the Cavies are doing is going to win as long as the judges really know what to listen for.

Let me see if I got this right. Since I like Phantom's sound better than Cavies I must be an unsophisticated, neanderthal eared, general audience member incapable of appreciating the higher end sonorities produced by the only hornline in history to produce beautifully intoned sounds for an entire show????

I like the references to 40 year old recordings.

Brass concepts change. MUSIC concepts change. The sound of brass you played back in 80 (fun to listen to, but I wouldn't teach it that way) isn't acceptable now. The instruments are better. The teaching is better.

Things change.

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Regiments line is very exciting to the general audience. Cavies line is very exciting to the higher end listener who is excited about a line that can do everything and do it well. Its all a matter of taste, but what the Cavies are doing is going to win as long as the judges really know what to listen for.

Let me see if I got this right. Since I like Phantom's sound better than Cavies I must be an unsophisticated, neanderthal eared, general audience member incapable of appreciating the higher end sonorities produced by the only hornline in history to produce beautifully intoned sounds for an entire show????

no. it means the university or drum corps that taught you did not do it's job correctly

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Mosthumble, hope you're not offended. I think you and I can agree that there has to be a point where playing with a little edge crosses the line and becomes crass and overplayed. We probably disagree where that point is though.

Trying to play loudly isn't a bad thing in and of itself. I just think that at some point, the distortion from individuals overplaying becomes self defeating and actually keeps the ensemble from projecting as well. As I said before, my statements are in regards to what I remember from the early 90's. I haven't listened to CD's from recent years and honestly can't remember much about the few times I've seen PR live lately.

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Everyone agrees that there is a certain line that when crossed, enters the realm of blastissimo. Trombones do it all the time, a lot of the time accidentally. With good air support, and knowing how fast or slow, and especially knowing where that line is for your own person is important. Pretty much this whole debate over cavies or PR boils down to two things...and this might be a little obvious but hey! oh well :) ...the staff and the players of each corps. Even good players might not reach the best they can play, or practice bad techniques such as over-blowing, with poor teachers. But the best teachers cannot teach players who will not learn, cannot learn, or are not at a level of playing as others.

I personally like the low end balance of PR, but i also appreciate the musicianship of the cavies. I am not saying that any of you arnt, its just as someone (sorry dont remember who and im too lazy to check :P ) said, they are apples and oranges. They both play very well, and i enjoy them both. Especially cavies 2002. They played that show great. In the slower moments, you can hear the lower parts, and the chords are quite open. But everything has to do with how the staff of each corps wants the sound to be. Staffs will strive for what they want and, hopefully, the players will play how they want. And everyone has their own opinions and are entitled to them, so a lot of this is subjective.

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Let me see if I got this right. Since I like Phantom's sound better than Cavies I must be an unsophisticated, neanderthal eared, general audience member incapable of appreciating the higher end sonorities produced by the only hornline in history to produce beautifully intoned sounds for an entire show????

no. it means the university or drum corps that taught you did not do it's job correctly

Oh I see. So there is one and only one correct concept of sound and that is the one YOU were taught is correct. Hmmm...

Since a picture (or in this case, sound ) is worth a thousand words, which of the following diverse group of musicians, plays with the "correct" sound concepts?

- Dizzy Gillespie

- Louis Armstrong

- Miles Davis

- Adolph Herseth

- Wynton Marsallis

- Maynard Fergusen

- Doc Severinson

- Chuck Mangione

- Phillip Farkas

- Dennis Brain

- Jack Teagarden

- JJ Johnson

- Joseph Alessi

- Arnold Jacobs

- Pat Sheridan

I think the most honest answer is that they all play with a unique and very different character of sound that is correct for them and for the style of music they choose to portray. This notion that there is only one correct sound concept is a really bunch of pseudo-academic clap-trap that is passed down to unsuspecting students by high school band directors and college professors but has little merit in the real world outside of academia.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not being critical of you. I am being critical of a system (whichever one you were taught by) that teaches and enforces this notion that there is only one right way of doing things. I mean if we all thought that way, we would still be playing on sack-butts and harpsichords (and loving it)!

Thank God, for a diversity of musical styles to choose from whether in drum corps or in the real world. And to each his own.

I'm not sure I would enjoy this activity if everyone sounded like everyone else simply because the activity or any of the haughty psuedo-acamdemians who wander this activity, forced corps to play the one and only one correct way.

Perhaps there is enough room in this activity for a diversity of different sound concepts which go beyond the right and wrong (i.e. ticks) and allows for corps to explore their chosen style to their fullest and to excite people in whatever ways they choose to be excited, whether cerebral and serene, or raw, edgy and emotional.

HH

Edited by Hornhoser
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Maybe we shouldn't keep score then. We should just have demonstrations of different sounds. If you want to play clarinets, play clarinets. Mouth harps have a nice sound too.

If there's no standard to be applied, then there obviously is no reason for competition. And yes, competition inherently limits the bounds to which one can explore. Those bounds can be stretched but at some point, experimentation/innovation suffers.

I guess we all have our own opinion about how standards should be applied if at all. Obviously, innovations in music, such as the movement of jazz, never would have taken place within the restrictive bounds of competition.

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When we play together as a brass line are we going for 64 different sounds on the field or are we going after uniformity of technique and sound? Listing out individual artists is great, and they are wonderful performers, however comparing a topic like that to drum corps is like comparing apples to oranges.

Drum corps, no matter how "artsy" it gets will still be about execution. Execution as it relates from player to player and the over all continuity of the sound as it relates to each individual player. Having one or two individuals fuzz out or stick out slightly causes the texture of the overall sound to suffer. Bottom line the execution needs to appear uniform even though it is in the hands of the individual.

What would qualify as an error or a mistake is probably 9 times out of 10 a mental mistake. A loss of control that has nothing to do with the players talent level or ability. It has more to do with their focus and concentration. The most exciting groups can walk a thin line on the field and appear to have some sort of edge when out there. I am not saying everyone should be like robots out there executing the same way 100 times in a row, there is the chance to communicate with the audience. That is in the hands of each individual and how he or she relates to the group.

In the end it's all about personal preference. Each persons interpretation of quality and clarity is going to be different. Some prefer the edge on the sound while others do not. Some prefer jazz and other prefer classical. I prefer jazz and edge when it is called for, edge by the ensemble as a whole, not an individual having a mental lapse.

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Regiments line is very exciting to the general audience. Cavies line is very exciting to the higher end listener who is excited about a line that can do everything and do it well. Its all a matter of taste, but what the Cavies are doing is going to win as long as the judges really know what to listen for.

Let me see if I got this right. Since I like Phantom's sound better than Cavies I must be an unsophisticated, neanderthal eared, general audience member incapable of appreciating the higher end sonorities produced by the only hornline in history to produce beautifully intoned sounds for an entire show????

I like the references to 40 year old recordings.

Brass concepts change. MUSIC concepts change. The sound of brass you played back in 80 (fun to listen to, but I wouldn't teach it that way) isn't acceptable now. The instruments are better. The teaching is better.

Things change.

I like the references to 40 year old recordings.

I double checked, the Chicago/Reiner recording was from 1954. O foolish me! I also failed to mention that the music was written over 100 years ago. I guess that makes it irrelevant to the discussion too.

Brass concepts change.  MUSIC concepts change.  The sound of brass you played back in 80 (fun to listen to, but I wouldn't teach it that way) isn't acceptable now.  The instruments are better.  The teaching is better.

No not better, just different.

If you want something more current try recent recordings of the Atlanta Symphony, especially the Mahler. But then again that's an 'old-school book' too.

BTW, the principle trumpet player with Atlanta is a young man named Chris Martin. His daddy, Freddy, founded Spirit of Atlanta in 1976.Chris marched years later later. Many people don't know but Chris won the principle job at the LA Phil in 2001 and turned it down.

Listen to any of the Chicago/Reiner, Chicago/Solti, Montreal/Dutoit or the recent Atlanta recordings (just to name a VERY few)...they will set you free.

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Let me see if I got this right. Since I like Phantom's sound better than Cavies I must be an unsophisticated, neanderthal eared, general audience member incapable of appreciating the higher end sonorities produced by the only hornline in history to produce beautifully intoned sounds for an entire show????

no. it means the university or drum corps that taught you did not do it's job correctly

Oh I see. So there is one and only one correct concept of sound and that is the one YOU were taught is correct. Hmmm...

Since a picture (or in this case, sound ) is worth a thousand words, which of the following diverse group of musicians, plays with the "correct" sound concepts?

- Dizzy Gillespie

- Louis Armstrong

- Miles Davis

- Adolph Herseth

- Wynton Marsallis

- Maynard Fergusen

- Doc Severinson

- Chuck Mangione

- Phillip Farkas

- Dennis Brain

- Jack Teagarden

- JJ Johnson

- Joseph Alessi

- Arnold Jacobs

- Pat Sheridan

I think the most honest answer is that they all play with a unique and very different character of sound that is correct for them and for the style of music they choose to portray. This notion that there is only one correct sound concept is a really bunch of pseudo-academic clap-trap that is passed down to unsuspecting students by high school band directors and college professors but has little merit in the real world outside of academia.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not being critical of you. I am being critical of a system (whichever one you were taught by) that teaches and enforces this notion that there is only one right way of doing things. I mean if we all thought that way, we would still be playing on sack-butts and harpsichords (and loving it)!

Thank God, for a diversity of musical styles to choose from whether in drum corps or in the real world. And to each his own.

I'm not sure I would enjoy this activity if everyone sounded like everyone else simply because the activity or any of the haughty psuedo-acamdemians who wander this activity, forced corps to play the one and only one correct way.

Perhaps there is enough room in this activity for a diversity of different sound concepts which go beyond the right and wrong (i.e. ticks) and allows for corps to explore their chosen style to their fullest and to excite people in whatever ways they choose to be excited, whether cerebral and serene, or raw, edgy and emotional.

HH

those are all great players, but ive never heard any of them try to play past their own limitations. however, i have heard drum corps attempt to play beyond their limitations of supported sound

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which of the following diverse group of musicians, plays with the "correct" sound concepts?

- Dizzy Gillespie

- Louis Armstrong

- Miles Davis

- Adolph Herseth

- Wynton Marsallis

- Maynard Fergusen

- Doc Severinson

- Chuck Mangione

- Phillip Farkas

- Dennis Brain

- Jack Teagarden

- JJ Johnson

- Joseph Alessi

- Arnold Jacobs

- Pat Sheridan

I think the most honest answer is that they all play with a unique and very different character of sound that is correct for them and for the style of music they choose to portray.

Very true. But imagine that these 15 people were put in an ensemble together. Do you think they'd all continue to play with their respective "styles"? I certainly hope not, because it'd be a pretty awful ensemble. I would hope that these fine players, assuming some of them were still alive B) , would be able to listen and match in all aspects of playing. Is it bad to want an ensemble that sounds matched and balanced? I certainly don't think so. But if that's not your preference, to each his own.

Martin

Edited by this_guy
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