Is the 35 minimum still a thing?

[Shadow_7]

Seems like a pandemic situation dictates that  35 or "less" corps is one of the only things capable of meeting pandemic specs for "existing".  4 step spacing, aka 1/2 of 5 yards, aka 7.5'.  And yet leading up the the pandemic, illegal according to the rules.  And yet anytime any corps had a "soloist", was literally spitting in the face of the 35 minimum rule.  Never mind that that rule did not include the staff, the honor guard, or even the drum major.  Are we still there?  Or can anybody with a decent render farm and recording equipment can "win" DCA?  Just curious, for that thing that has literally been "virtual" since 2006.  When it became cheaper to be a spectator, than a participant.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Shadow_7

[Jeff Ream]

seems like with restrictions loosening, your entire post is moot

[BigW]

Taking it a step further as this keeps coming up every so often:

It was clear over and over (AND OVER) again that smaller organizations weren't wanted by show hosts. It was very, very, (VERY) clear that many of them weren't as good as many of them believed they were, period. I sat at some shows and heard quite pointed and quite audible nasty audience comments. The comments made me cringe. I'm not even that mean to have said that stuff. And I have heckled over the years. Jeff wouldn't say stuff like that so the whole freakin' stadium heard it. 

 

You have a smaller group? Do indoor/WGI where you have a smaller performance space and aren't swallowed up by the vastness of the football field and have better acoustics for a smaller group. Go to Soundsport. Show up for DCA Minicorps if you think you can cut it against just about everyone I saw at Minis the last time I went. Their arrangements are wonderfully done and the brass players are very expierienced and skilled. Form a street band. People like them. Entertain in that way. Make people happy. Plenty of good ones out there. If you cen eventually get your 35 by hook or by crook using the rules as laid out to your advantage, go DCA Class A. Good luck there. The finalists there are quite capable, with great design, a lot of talent and top end instruction. Showing up at A contrary to a lot of people's thoughts and beliefs guarantees you nothing unless there are 4 or less competitors.

 

My tuppence. Some people keep kvetching, believeing their 10 brass, 6 drummers, a 7th grader on a xylophone, and 2 color guard who are the big sisters of the kid on the Xylo are the bestest thing since the invention of the wheel, sliced bread and Dream Whip. For indoor... maybe. For Minis and Soundport, maybe. A street band, yeah, maybe. Not at a DCA contest outdoors. Not at all.

[dbriggs]

when this comes up, I'm reminded of a corps I saw with 4 brass. kept wondering - is that a square or a circle

[Jeff Ream]

8 hours ago, BigW said:

Taking it a step further as this keeps coming up every so often:

It was clear over and over (AND OVER) again that smaller organizations weren't wanted by show hosts. It was very, very, (VERY) clear that many of them weren't as good as many of them believed they were, period. I sat at some shows and heard quite pointed and quite audible nasty audience comments. The comments made me cringe. I'm not even that mean to have said that stuff. And I have heckled over the years. Jeff wouldn't say stuff like that so the whole freakin' stadium heard it. 

 

You have a smaller group? Do indoor/WGI where you have a smaller performance space and aren't swallowed up by the vastness of the football field and have better acoustics for a smaller group. Go to Soundsport. Show up for DCA Minicorps if you think you can cut it against just about everyone I saw at Minis the last time I went. Their arrangements are wonderfully done and the brass players are very expierienced and skilled. Form a street band. People like them. Entertain in that way. Make people happy. Plenty of good ones out there. If you cen eventually get your 35 by hook or by crook using the rules as laid out to your advantage, go DCA Class A. Good luck there. The finalists there are quite capable, with great design, a lot of talent and top end instruction. Showing up at A contrary to a lot of people's thoughts and beliefs guarantees you nothing unless there are 4 or less competitors.

 

My tuppence. Some people keep kvetching, believeing their 10 brass, 6 drummers, a 7th grader on a xylophone, and 2 color guard who are the big sisters of the kid on the Xylo are the bestest thing since the invention of the wheel, sliced bread and Dream Whip. For indoor... maybe. For Minis and Soundport, maybe. A street band, yeah, maybe. Not at a DCA contest outdoors. Not at all.

the issue is IMO is many smaller corps DO NOT write for what they have, they write for what they wish they were.

[BigW]

1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:

the issue is IMO is many smaller corps DO NOT write for what they have, they write for what they wish they were.

Very much agreed. There are more then a few HS programs I've seen under that 35 member limit who design and present far better than some of these smaller groups that showed up at DCA events. Food for though next- and I think Jeff would agree on this stuff, if not point out some unclear thing or flaw and I'll work it out.  😉

 

I want to make something very clear:

There was a Garden State Corps, Southern Illusion, who presented and competed with @8 brass, @ 6 percussion and @ 8 guard. I got a good look at them @ 1995, and they were respectable given the small assets. Also, keep in mind Garden State was one of the last real vestiges of the Boys and Girls' Club corps that remained in urban areas. When they lost their way and figured they should be more like DCI, the circuit collapsed quickly, leaving Surf and the Raiders. It did a lot of good for kids who desperately needed positve structure, learning, and self-esteem in their lives. There, it was okay for Southern Illusion to exist. Everyone got it- it wasn't about trying to be DCI World Class. It was about helping kids who needed help!

Expectations of DCA and the DCA audience are rather different. It's not a High School Band circuit where small units that might struggle and are encouraged and hopefully nutured and developed in the same way as Garden State. The emphasis on Education with the HS scene brings different expectations for groups like that- are the kids learning? Are they growing? Are they doing something positive? If the show happens to be a door-buster and knocks people back on their heels, it's an added plus, not the main objective. If 15 kids in a band, and I've seen one out of West Virginia that was quite good-- show that they're trying to be thoughtful musicians and perform within their limits, it's a win for all. Differrent expectations from the audience.

 

It's not even Red Carpet, which was mainly there to give non-DCA corps enough performances and reps in front of friendly audiences so that the huge advantages DCA members had over non-members could be mitigated somewhat. For Westshore, the Thunderbirds some others- it did help, I believe.

 

The DCA audience wants something they feel 'watchable'. It defines differently for most people but I would say they want more than they see from a HS contest. They expect a certain level of quality of performance, thoughtful and enjoyable design, and some excitement, not some snorefest that ambles and bumbles on to try and hit the rubrics for certain numbers. (I can think of one DCA corps that drove me insane because of this...) Warmed over HS shows or even shows/designs that would be barely medicore at a HS contest aren't well recieved by the fans nor judges. I've seen a few of those kinds of shows in DCA, and I'm not calling any corps out. Most readers know who they've been. and most of those corps have either have cleaned up their act and figured things out or they're inactive now. Or, know they have things to do and are working very hard and thoughfully to attain a respectable level of quality.

Edited June 30, 2021 by BigW

[BigW]

6 hours ago, dbriggs said:

when this comes up, I'm reminded of a corps I saw with 4 brass. kept wondering - is that a square or a circle

Heard that. Southern Illusion basically had to use diamond shaped formations thtoughout the program for that reason. A smart decision in that those shapes help to give a little more projection from the brass. and they needed all of that.

[JimF-LowBari]

I was against the 35 rule until a show organizer I know personally gave me an inside peek. His show had two under 35 member corps and 4 others. Heard enough comments from paying customers that they felt ripped off paying for what was called a 6 corps show. More importantly if the show was like that the following year, they would not attend. Changed my opinion….

[BigW]

1 minute ago, JimF-LowBari said:

I was against the 35 rule until a show organizer I know personally gave me an inside peek. His show had two under 35 member corps and 4 others. Heard enough comments from paying customers that they felt ripped off paying for what was called a 6 corps show. More importantly if the show was like that the following year, they would not attend. Changed my opinion….

I have a guess on which show.

In theory, SDCA is supposed to provide opportunities, but they seem to have failed in many ways to get their news out and to provide enough shows. All I've heard of them was a couple of years ago through the Thunderbirds newsletter where there was a show they attended. Last I knew directly from them, they were rather petulant online that they were co-opted by Mini Corps and Soundsport. The lack of online savvy, presence, and the understanding of what that means has really hamstung them, IMHO. Word of mouth, posters at the local Get & Go, or a website or even FB page that's not kept updated means no one like me who might jump in a car and go to a show doesn't know what's happening until after the show if at all.

[Jeff Ream]

22 hours ago, BigW said:

Very much agreed. There are more then a few HS programs I've seen under that 35 member limit who design and present far better than some of these smaller groups that showed up at DCA events. Food for though next- and I think Jeff would agree on this stuff, if not point out some unclear thing or flaw and I'll work it out.  😉

 

I want to make something very clear:

There was a Garden State Corps, Southern Illusion, who presented and competed with @8 brass, @ 6 percussion and @ 8 guard. I got a good look at them @ 1995, and they were respectable given the small assets. Also, keep in mind Garden State was one of the last real vestiges of the Boys and Girls' Club corps that remained in urban areas. When they lost their way and figured they should be more like DCI, the circuit collapsed quickly, leaving Surf and the Raiders. It did a lot of good for kids who desperately needed positve structure, learning, and self-esteem in their lives. There, it was okay for Southern Illusion to exist. Everyone got it- it wasn't about trying to be DCI World Class. It was about helping kids who needed help!

Expectations of DCA and the DCA audience are rather different. It's not a High School Band circuit where small units that might struggle and are encouraged and hopefully nutured and developed in the same way as Garden State. The emphasis on Education with the HS scene brings different expectations for groups like that- are the kids learning? Are they growing? Are they doing something positive? If the show happens to be a door-buster and knocks people back on their heels, it's an added plus, not the main objective. If 15 kids in a band, and I've seen one out of West Virginia that was quite good-- show that they're trying to be thoughtful musicians and perform within their limits, it's a win for all. Differrent expectations from the audience.

 

It's not even Red Carpet, which was mainly there to give non-DCA corps enough performances and reps in front of friendly audiences so that the huge advantages DCA members had over non-members could be mitigated somewhat. For Westshore, the Thunderbirds some others- it did help, I believe.

 

The DCA audience wants something they feel 'watchable'. It defines differently for most people but I would say they want more than they see from a HS contest. They expect a certain level of quality of performance, thoughtful and enjoyable design, and some excitement, not some snorefest that ambles and bumbles on to try and hit the rubrics for certain numbers. (I can think of one DCA corps that drove me insane because of this...) Warmed over HS shows or even shows/designs that would be barely medicore at a HS contest aren't well recieved by the fans nor judges. I've seen a few of those kinds of shows in DCA, and I'm not calling any corps out. Most readers know who they've been. and most of those corps have either have cleaned up their act and figured things out or they're inactive now. Or, know they have things to do and are working very hard and thoughfully to attain a respectable level of quality.

i have taught those small bands and we learned...we aren't Phantom or SCV. we are 34 musicians, a third of them percussion. and boom the program got a lot better.

 

i have said it here before many times, and I will again...Govies are geniuses. they design for what they have. a couple of years they may have stretched the brass a little too much, but how many times have they missed A Class finals since they first came in? one of the last years in Scranton some corps was out there with like 9 brass and 2 percussion trying to do Crown Imperial like 27th. WTF? and one of the Annapolis years some corps was out there trying to do Fire of Eternal Glory and Firebird with 20 brass or less. WHY? 

 

obviously come summer judges cant really say " you over wrote, start all over"....theres no time. But you see the scores they get, and how many are even still around? has to turn members off when they can't break 75 in todays kinder gentler scoring system