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Phantom Regiment 2022


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On 9/10/2021 at 7:16 PM, Mello Dude said:

The problem is not the "sheets"...it's how judges give score.  This has been my biggest issue with DCI.  You can put anything you want but at the end of the day those that sit in judgement make the call...regardless.  A LOT of stuff is given "score" for something that isn't there.  Intent is not accomplishment.

I’m not aware however of any outcry by any of the Corps that they believe that their scores and placements were not what they should have received since the sheets were approved . If fans received what they wanted over the years , the Madison Scouts  would have won about 7-8 DCI Titles by now  , not just 2 .  What corps are getting scores for invisible things on intent alone in your assessment ?

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1 hour ago, Boss Anova said:

I’m not aware however of any outcry by any of the Corps that they believe that their scores and placements were not what they should have received since the sheets were approved . If fans received what they wanted over the years , the Madison Scouts  would have won about 7-8 DCI Titles by now  , not just 2 .  What corps are getting scores for invisible things on intent alone in your assessment ?

Corps live and die by the sword in regards to what is on the sheets. It would be pretty lame for corps X have a meltdown about their scoring if they were part of deciding on what is being scored, no?
All I’m saying is after what the 2021 season gave us, when “creativity” was allowed to reign supreme, that the corps would perhaps take some of that feedback and rethink the sheets. While the marching members of 2021 did amazing things the paying fans did too to keep the activity we love so much alive.

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12 hours ago, Boss Anova said:

I’m not aware however of any outcry by any of the Corps that they believe that their scores and placements were not what they should have received since the sheets were approved . If fans received what they wanted over the years , the Madison Scouts  would have won about 7-8 DCI Titles by now  , not just 2 .  What corps are getting scores for invisible things on intent alone in your assessment ?

Absolutely.  Who judges the judges?  I thought they eliminated critique?  Let me put it this way; a corps doing complex drill cleanly while playing should be scored higher on demand than a corps lunging on scaffolding and ramps.  It seems a lot of corps doing more "judgeable" content don't get "score".  Corps playing more ensemble rather than front ensemble CONSANTLY bridging movements that could and should have been played by the entire corps.  I could go on and on but it SEEMS we could have a debate on what is judgeable content and demand.

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11 hours ago, Sutasaurus said:

Corps live and die by the sword in regards to what is on the sheets. It would be pretty lame for corps X have a meltdown about their scoring if they were part of deciding on what is being scored, no?
 

 Yes... thats how how assess this as well.. The vote to approve the revised sheets a few years ago ( as well as place percussion judges on the sidelines ) was a unanimous vote I have heard too.

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53 minutes ago, Mello Dude said:

Absolutely.  Who judges the judges?  

 The Membership Corps themselves. Corps over the years have made appeals to DCI Hq that judges be removed from judging ( for one reason or another ) and on occasion, on appeal, those judges have either resigned voluntarily or were successfully removed.  So yes, there is constant oversight on the judges being made to justify their scoring among the competition corps, as well as their peer judges themselves..

 The DCI Judging sheets have undergone transformative changes over the years... far more changes than in any sport I can think of for example. Corps were once judged in a " tic system " which could not be more radically different than a " build up points " system. Guard never had their separate caption for many years. GE was one caption for many years ( before later being broken down into sub captions, GE Music, GE Visual ).  There are several more judges in numbers, judging regional shows, and championships now, that balances out the low/ high scoring judges a bit more now. Its not a perfect system. But it is one the Corps themselves understand the how and the why their scores they received are what they are. And they seem  pleased with the sheets/ scores/ placements  by the current crop of judges.

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1 hour ago, Mello Dude said:

Absolutely.  Who judges the judges?  I thought they eliminated critique?  Let me put it this way; a corps doing complex drill cleanly while playing should be scored higher on demand than a corps lunging on scaffolding and ramps.  It seems a lot of corps doing more "judgeable" content don't get "score".  Corps playing more ensemble rather than front ensemble CONSANTLY bridging movements that could and should have been played by the entire corps.  I could go on and on but it SEEMS we could have a debate on what is judgeable content and demand.

The trend of the pit playing through passages that to my ear would have been better played by the entire corps is something that I have certainly noticed, but never really mentioned. I thought maybe it was just me and didn't want people saying that I was just "getting old and grumpy." 

I would love to see some conversation about what is judgeable content and how it's judged. Again, my experience is ONLY as an MM. The experience of others who actually judge has been very helpful and educational thus far. I would actually love to hear some judges tapes beyond percussion or a podcast with judging that explains WHY specific things were judged the way they were. I'm a "show me" kinda' cat. I can read great responses here, but I need context. 

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28 minutes ago, Weaklefthand4ever said:

The trend of the pit playing through passages that to my ear would have been better played by the entire corps is something that I have certainly noticed, but never really mentioned. I thought maybe it was just me and didn't want people saying that I was just "getting old and grumpy." 

I would love to see some conversation about what is judgeable content and how it's judged. Again, my experience is ONLY as an MM. The experience of others who actually judge has been very helpful and educational thus far. I would actually love to hear some judges tapes beyond percussion or a podcast with judging that explains WHY specific things were judged the way they were. I'm a "show me" kinda' cat. I can read great responses here, but I need context. 

 I agree. It would be helpful if judges could become more visible to fans to explain what they liked in ( for example ) in previous shows, previous years, where they placed a Corps in competition in ( for example ) first place in their caption. Transparency and better education with the public can only be deemed a good thing, imo

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11 minutes ago, Boss Anova said:

 I agree. It would be helpful if judges could become more visible to fans to explain what they liked in ( for example ) in previous shows, previous years, where they placed a Corps in competition in ( for example ) first place in their caption. Transparency and more and better  education with the public can only be deemed a good thing, imo

And that is something that several of the posters here would be familiar with and able to provide. Even just a simple high camera overdub of a show and how someone with experience would judge it would honestly be fascinating to me. For someone who is in my shoes, it was always about "hit my dot....dut dut dut dut huzgida digadigadiga huzzzz." I just honestly never much considered the overall picture and how it was judged separately from my narrow perspective on the field. 

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On 9/11/2021 at 7:42 PM, Boss Anova said:

I’m not aware however of any outcry by any of the Corps that they believe that their scores and placements were not what they should have received since the sheets were approved . If fans received what they wanted over the years , the Madison Scouts  would have won about 7-8 DCI Titles by now  , not just 2 .  What corps are getting scores for invisible things on intent alone in your assessment ?

I would agree that in general there is little public outcry by the corps about scores and placement publicly, though over the years a few directors have made their feelings known, but privately is another matter. I have never spoken with anyone associated with SCV and Blue Devils about scores and placement, but I have had enough casual conversations with folks from other corps to know there is some displeasure with scoring and a belief that judges are biased against some corps. I don’t think the disagreement is with the sheets but how some judges interpret the sheets. I think we all know there are two corps who believe that there should be more than just one championship under their belts. Some corps believe that judges don’t want to see them move up, and when you speak with these folks, they give very specific reasons for what they believe. It’s genuine disagreement, not sour grapes. 

For me, I can usually understand who places where and why, though there are times I disagree, and if I vent on this site, someone will usually point out to me I am not a judge and that’s true. We also have areas we may know better and some where we do not know much. I’m usually on target with brass, but unless it is a glaring problem, I don’t pick up on percussion errors. That certainly impacts our personal points of view. I would like to see more variation in scores and placement. I went to Atlanta one year and the following night attended NightBEAT. The corps were good, but appeared tired and were not as strong as the previous night,  but all  corps but one scored higher. It’s rare you see scores go down and often it’s due to a penalty. Corps do make progress throughout the season, but corps also have off nights or make changes which are not yet clean even though down the road it may be the reason for a victory. I’d like to see these things reflected in scores.

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7 hours ago, Tim K said:

I would agree that in general there is little public outcry by the corps about scores and placement publicly, though over the years a few directors have made their feelings known, but privately is another matter. I have never spoken with anyone associated with SCV and Blue Devils about scores and placement, but I have had enough casual conversations with folks from other corps to know there is some displeasure with scoring and a belief that judges are biased against some corps. I don’t think the disagreement is with the sheets but how some judges interpret the sheets. I think we all know there are two corps who believe that there should be more than just one championship under their belts. Some corps believe that judges don’t want to see them move up, and when you speak with these folks, they give very specific reasons for what they believe. It’s genuine disagreement, not sour grapes. 

For me, I can usually understand who places where and why, though there are times I disagree, and if I vent on this site, someone will usually point out to me I am not a judge and that’s true. We also have areas we may know better and some where we do not know much. I’m usually on target with brass, but unless it is a glaring problem, I don’t pick up on percussion errors. That certainly impacts our personal points of view. I would like to see more variation in scores and placement. I went to Atlanta one year and the following night attended NightBEAT. The corps were good, but appeared tired and were not as strong as the previous night,  but all  corps but one scored higher. It’s rare you see scores go down and often it’s due to a penalty. Corps do make progress throughout the season, but corps also have off nights or make changes which are not yet clean even though down the road it may be the reason for a victory. I’d like to see these things reflected in scores.

 I wouldn't want to be a DCI judge these days. Its far, far more difficult to decide which is " better " these days than ever before.

 At one time, judges were asked to compare and contrast quite similar things amongst the competing Corps . The brass lines all utilized the same brass instruments. Percussion too. Same with Color Guards. There were no props. No music sounds being artificially produced by high tech. No singers, nor vocalists whether real or piped in. Corps are much larger now too in competition.

 Brass and GE Music judges at one time were asked to compare the sound quality coming from brassers pretty much all utilizing the same brass instruments. But now things are FAR more complex  and challenging for the brass and GE Music judges as the instrumentation utilized among the various corps in competition could not be more different now.  For example, the sound of a baritone brass instrument is much different than the sound of ( for example ) a trombone. A concert french horn has a different sound than a tuba or a mellophone.  6-12 brass players playing trombones in a musical piece are going to sound entirely different than 6-12 brass players playing a musical passage on ( say ) mellophones. The judge used to be asked which is performed " better " among similar instruments. Now that judge is asked to tell us which is  performed " better " when the sounds coming from dissimilar musical instruments are fundamentally entirely different sounds altogether to begin with. I'm not saying the judges don't get it " right " most of the time regarding which is performed " better " on these dissimilar musical instruments, just that is certainly made more difficult and challenging when none of the Corps utilize the same brass instruments anymore in competition ( ie, some use trombones, some don't.. some use concert french  horns, others don't, some use 16- 20 tubas, some use 8-10. some have singers and/ or vocalists, some none. Some have elaborate props, some inexpensive ones, and so on and so forth ). 

 Thus, in this challenging environment for judges, in order for a challenging Corps to beat for example the Blue Devils, its like a prize fight. The challenger is rarely going to get the benefit of the doubt on points when in the ring with the champion. Jf its a close fight, and it goes the 12 rounds, then unfortunately, its usually the champion, or the name brand fighter that gets the win on points with the judges. is it fair ? probably not. Is there an answer to it ? Sure. But it wont be easy (nothing is for the challenger ). Knock out the champion. Lights out. Leave no doubt in the judges mind then. I mean this figuratively here... of course.  But I do mean win convincingly ,ie no sectional weaknesses, nor in creative show design, sound engineering, props, creative attire,  nor performer execution on Finals Night.  if thats what it takes, well then thats what it takes.

 

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