Jeff Ream Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 16 hours ago, cixelsyd said: An additional truck for props is not just a line item... it is a series of line items. And how can we rationalize another new expense just because it is smaller than some other existing expense? If my mortgage payment is small compared to yours, then you should have no problem with paying it for me, then. Right? no but i can probably get you a better rate 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 6 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: s i said those costs don't help...but yet are far from the biggest drag on a corps budget. feed up to 200 people 4 times a day and have options available for those with special dietary needs or requests....not cheap. insurance, especially to cover liability for housing and injury for up to 200 people? Not cheap. driving a minimum of 2/3 of the country in gas guzzlers? not cheap. Want to stay in a school? not free anymore. oh and rehearsing for up to 6 weeks before tour? thats the biggest dent into a budget because no revenue is being generated at that time This post illustrates another fallacy with this argument. Food - people need food or they cannot live. Insurance - corps need insurance or one claim will bankrupt them. Fuel - corps need fuel or they cannot travel to contests. Housing - corps need housing or they cannot travel to contests. Props are not an existential necessity like these other items. Drum corps thrived for decades without props, and could have continued to do so. But instead, a subset of top corps decided to add this expense to an activity that was already dependent upon an enormous amount of charitable donations to keep it going. How do you justify adding ANY non-essential expense when you are so dependent on charity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 8 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: from a post in 2008 right here. only Denver and Pasadena beat what Indy gets now and its pretty clear location matters 1999 (Madison) 19,931 2000 (College Park) 18,423 2001 (Buffalo) 16,505 2002 (Madison) 20,230 2003 (Orlando) 18,865 2004 (Denver) 22,047 2005 (Boston) 20,542 2006 (Madison) 21,236 2007 (Pasadena) 24,395 What does Indy get now? Last time I recall seeing a number was four years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mello Dude Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHCTaUFXpP8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 10 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: from a post in 2008 right here. only Denver and Pasadena beat what Indy gets now and its pretty clear location matters 1999 (Madison) 19,931 2000 (College Park) 18,423 2001 (Buffalo) 16,505 2002 (Madison) 20,230 2003 (Orlando) 18,865 2004 (Denver) 22,047 2005 (Boston) 20,542 2006 (Madison) 21,236 2007 (Pasadena) 24,395 Didn't Montreal in 1981 have around 35k in attendance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedci Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 23 minutes ago, Continental said: Didn't Montreal in 1981 have around 35k in attendance? The Montreal championship were the most well attended... however... the number was approx 31,000. there is some flex in that because DCI was still in the cigar box accounting system at that tim. But.... what drove attendance at Montreal was the number of entrants - a record 101 units...30 more than previous high. These new units were mostly units affiliated with Montreal/Quebec schools/corps and never attended another DCI championships. To not be aware of the direct relationships between local corps entrants and fan attendance is a bit of an oversight. The same issue plays to some extent in the US -- championships in places that have little/no local entrants tend to have lower attendance - Miami, Jackson MS. The attendance patterns at DCI events across the country can be roughly grouped into audiences that need clearsil (Southeast and Texas), ethnically diverse and young audiences (west of rockies) and the Geritol crowd (east of Mississippi river and north of Ohio river). The direct correlation between entrant/participants and audience size was a key factor in making the Thursday prelims essentially an all-comers event : more corps, more audience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedci Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 What might be worth considering is what else will change if there are no scores. Folks are looking at maybe the tree and missing the forest -- if there are no scores, there will probably be no rules and without competition and "rules", there will likely be far fewer corps and those that remain will be financially solvent and bigger than the current rules stipulate. And dumping scores will dramatically alter the economic model (revenue generation in particular) for the remaining corps and DCI. To reprise a wee of history - no scores will usher in what was once upon a time suggested - the G7. Consider drum corps as a commodity with two faces -- as an entertainment/diversion for an audience and as a zen/educational endeavor for members. There is an imbalance between supply and demand for both -- too much drum corps for the market for audiences and too much drum corps as a zen/educational journey for members. If you dump scores, and the subsequent elimination rules, the supply/demand equilibrium will likely become more balanced. There will likely be fewer touring drum corps and drum corps overall will become, more specifically, a post-scholastic activity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Lancer Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 3 hours ago, cixelsyd said: This post illustrates another fallacy with this argument. Food - people need food or they cannot live. Insurance - corps need insurance or one claim will bankrupt them. Fuel - corps need fuel or they cannot travel to contests. Housing - corps need housing or they cannot travel to contests. Props are not an existential necessity like these other items. Drum corps thrived for decades without props, and could have continued to do so. But instead, a subset of top corps decided to add this expense to an activity that was already dependent upon an enormous amount of charitable donations to keep it going. How do you justify adding ANY non-essential expense when you are so dependent on charity? I donate to the Bluecoats. I have zero problem with them spending money on props. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 52 minutes ago, stevedci said: The Montreal championship were the most well attended... however... the number was approx 31,000. there is some flex in that because DCI was still in the cigar box accounting system at that tim. The Olympic Stadium scoreboard reported 35,947 as the attendance at the 1981 finals. (And it has been discussed here that the scoreboard number was most likely a turnstile count, so paid attendance would be a lower number.) Quote But.... what drove attendance at Montreal was the number of entrants - a record 101 units...30 more than previous high. These new units were mostly units affiliated with Montreal/Quebec schools/corps and never attended another DCI championships. To not be aware of the direct relationships between local corps entrants and fan attendance is a bit of an oversight. Actually, only seven Quebec corps competed in the DCI Championship in 1981. Most of the increased participation came from Massachusetts (15 corps in 1981, up 8 from the previous year), New York (14 corps, an increase of 10), and Ontario (7 corps, up 5 from 1980). As for this comment... Quote The attendance patterns at DCI events across the country can be roughly grouped into audiences that need clearsil (Southeast and Texas), ethnically diverse and young audiences (west of rockies) and the Geritol crowd (east of Mississippi river and north of Ohio river). ... I doubt you have been to all these places, judging from the inaccuracy of your stereotyping. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triple Forte Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 On 8/20/2021 at 4:14 AM, Mello Dude said: Then add the semi, fuel for said semi and driver(s) for hauling those "props" and cost of those "props" to achieve "score". It's not a small number for some corps. It's a rather unfair advantage spending money to achieve "score". All it would take is a rule restricting to one semi trailer for equipment uniforms and another for food. Removal of local touring then makes the cost for that extra semi rather large. So a very good corps on the rise spent about 135k for prop design, construction and transportation in 2019 The arms race has to stop…IMO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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