BigW Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, troopers1 said: Speaking purely for myself...and for no on else. Competition is important to our activity, and there are benefits to it. But, in our activity's current state, the way we are measuring ourselves is leading us to do things that are hurting us. Our shows are written to check certain boxes on judging sheets. We have to pack in a certain number of tricks per minute that make our musical arrangements unrecognizable and unrelatable until the third or fourth careful listen. We spend a lot of money on "stuffs" to eek out that extra .15 point, but that don't pay off in the actual value of our shows to the paying (and non-paying) consumers. At the same time we are pushing our membership closer to the financial brink, and pushing our students beyond what many can support phyiscally, financially and academically. There's an unwritten rule in design: If you overdesign to try and get top box analysis numbers, the show becomes a rather tedious, droll, and nasty hot mess. The trick is to put just enough in to show you are capable of those things and get the credit, but also capable of presenting something that's watchable, enjoyable, and accessible. I think Mike Cesario would agree on that. I hope he would! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 6 minutes ago, Boss Anova said: Perhaps .. and on the flip side , the recommendation by some posters on here and other social media sites , are being ridiculous if they believe that Drum Corps on football fields should just do exhibitions out there each summer from now on . Interesting point. Would the typical young person fork over $5k "for the experience" without some kind of score payoff when that 5 k could be better spent on x college credits, a car... etc.? The answer is perhaps, or maybe. I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Anova Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, BigW said: Interesting point. Would the typical young person fork over $5k "for the experience" without some kind of score payoff when that 5 k could be better spent on x college credits, a car... etc.? The answer is perhaps, or maybe. I don't know. I don’t believe that most current marchers would pay money to bust their ### at practice from sun up to sun down, sleep on gym floors , ride on long travels on busses, etc and in exchange get to do 6 -7 parades and 15-30 exhibitions on other town’s football fields during their summers . Maybe some would at age 14-22, but my guess , that appeal would not be very appealing much at all in the long run to most youth . Edited August 17, 2021 by Boss Anova Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skevinp Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, BigW said: Interesting point. Would the typical young person fork over $5k "for the experience" without some kind of score payoff when that 5 k could be better spent on x college credits, a car... etc.? The answer is perhaps, or maybe. I don't know. Well, if they don’t place as well as they had hoped, does that mean they see their 5k and hard work as a waste of money and time? I suspect most do not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, skevinp said: Well, if they don’t place as well as they had hoped, does that mean they see their 5k and hard work as a waste of money and time? I suspect most do not. I never felt that way. The only season I have felt disappointment and disgust with was the one where we had three ring chasers cause a lot of negative drama and make things miserable and toxic. That... in spite of having the best Horn Book and hornline I played in. The season after, when we threw everything together in six weeks and showed up at prelims was far more enjoyable and satisfying. I think we're agreeing that the young people are still very much the same as we were in the most important ways. To their credit, I think they're a lot less tolerant of bad food and bad organizations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Anova Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 (edited) 43 minutes ago, skevinp said: Well, if they don’t place as well as they had hoped, does that mean they see their 5k and hard work as a waste of money and time? I suspect most do not. Most likely already have a pretty good idea within a placement or two where their Corps will “ place “ on the competition totem pole the following summer at fall and winter try out camps ,and so it’s no surprise at all to most of them in the end where their Corps places , and so the financial investment for the experience was not a disappointment in the end for the vast majority of them. The hundreds marching in Open Class are another example of marchers willing to invest their tine and money to improve in their abilities , have fun in their summers making friends and becoming more confident and mature young people . But this is a different question as to whether or not Drum Corps should drop judged competitions and have the marchers just do parades up and down streets and exhibitions on the football fields all summer long in the future now . Edited August 17, 2021 by Boss Anova Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 5 hours ago, rpbobcat said: My issue isn't with the concept of judging. The problem is having an objective system to accomplish that. Art, by its very nature, makes that difficult, if not impossible. If a judge likes jazz, more then rock, there is no way to completely put that "out of your mind" when you judge a show. Same thing, I find it hard to believe that a judge who marched, taught, designed for corps "A", wouldn't judge that corps differently then corps "B". Its just human nature. While not perfect, I do think the "tick" system did provide more objective judging. Ticks were just as subjective. Was the moment being evaluated worthy of a tick or not? The judge had to decide. In the case of a group tick situation, how bad was it? How many ticks should be assessed? Further, the judge had to be directly in front of the moment being evaluated to mark a tick. If the judge stood in front of the snares, for instance, and thought a bass phrase may have been dirty, the judge was not deemed to be in position to assess a bass tick. Recording ticks let to watered down shows as the season progressed, to eliminate every possible error, esp in percussion. I recall one hall of fame drum instructor who used to have a lot of cymbal crashes at the ends of battery phrases to cover up potential battery errors. There were lots of games back then, for sure. Brass charts were more vertically aligned, as opposed to independent horizontally aligned independent voices to make sure judges did not hit the line incorrectly for attack and release errors. I really can't imagine todays shows, as complex as they are, being able to be judged using any sort of tick system. That system went away because it was just not a sufficient way to truly evaluate the corps performances. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 25 minutes ago, MikeD said: Ticks were just as subjective. Was the moment being evaluated worthy of a tick or not? The judge had to decide. In the case of a group tick situation, how bad was it? How many ticks should be assessed? Further, the judge had to be directly in front of the moment being evaluated to mark a tick. If the judge stood in front of the snares, for instance, and thought a bass phrase may have been dirty, the judge was not deemed to be in position to assess a bass tick. Recording ticks let to watered down shows as the season progressed, to eliminate every possible error, esp in percussion. I recall one hall of fame drum instructor who used to have a lot of cymbal crashes at the ends of battery phrases to cover up potential battery errors. There were lots of games back then, for sure. Brass charts were more vertically aligned, as opposed to independent horizontally aligned independent voices to make sure judges did not hit the line incorrectly for attack and release errors. I really can't imagine todays shows, as complex as they are, being able to be judged using any sort of tick system. That system went away because it was just not a sufficient way to truly evaluate the corps performances. It was also a game as to how one could properly put the right hieroglyphics on the sheet for what brass instrument and on what proper line of the sheet. Or in some circuits, hit the button on the grocery clicker as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphabetmonkey Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 Has anyone considered polling the marchers? Do they have a forum to have their say regarding the general direction of DCI? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Anova Posted August 17, 2021 Share Posted August 17, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, MikeD said: Ticks were just as subjective. Was the moment being evaluated worthy of a tick or not? The judge had to decide. In the case of a group tick situation, how bad was it? How many ticks should be assessed? Further, the judge had to be directly in front of the moment being evaluated to mark a tick. If the judge stood in front of the snares, for instance, and thought a bass phrase may have been dirty, the judge was not deemed to be in position to assess a bass tick. Recording ticks let to watered down shows as the season progressed, to eliminate every possible error, esp in percussion. I recall one hall of fame drum instructor who used to have a lot of cymbal crashes at the ends of battery phrases to cover up potential battery errors. There were lots of games back then, for sure. Brass charts were more vertically aligned, as opposed to independent horizontally aligned independent voices to make sure judges did not hit the line incorrectly for attack and release errors. I really can't imagine todays shows, as complex as they are, being able to be judged using any sort of tick system. That system went away because it was just not a sufficient way to truly evaluate the corps performances. I would agree that the tick system left a lot to be desired . Judging Drum Corps shows today however is still FAR more challenging and subjective today under today’s system as the instruments utilized in competition are far more numerous and diverse than BITD . The sound is altered significantly now between corps in competition by different instruments usage . The Corps use engineering to alter that sound from the field to the judges box up top too . So judging remains a highly challenging and subjective endeavor , perhaps more so now than ever before , despite the change in the judging system now utilized Edited August 17, 2021 by Boss Anova Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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