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Paraphrased Thoughts on "Judging" from a newly minted 5-year Age Out


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On 8/20/2021 at 12:25 AM, Jeff Ream said:

exactly! i have recordings back to the 40's, and i'll listen...they were great THEN. drum corps has been changing since day 2. i have read old letters to the editors complaining about contras and timbales being added in the early 60's. taking away OTL in the 70's, and for as many people loved Bayonne in 76, quite a few thought they were satan in yellow raincoats.

 

I was born in 1969, and i first remember hearing an older alumni ##### about changes around 1974. and they still ##### today. I don't love every change. I don't love everything done today, but I didn't love everything down in other eras either.

Jeff, you reminded me about the time Rook and I were in his Suckmobile listening to a  cassette dub of the Longshoremen's 78RPM recording of their 1946(?) VFW Championship performance. We're listening to "Ah, Sweet Mystery of Life" and I asked Rook why it was so rhythmically stilted and ironed out. He explained the 1946 VFW regs had a rule where the performance had to fit between x and y beats per minute tempo throughout the show or get a penalty. I think one conclusion reached that it was no wonder Corps eventually broke away from the AL and VFW sanctioning bodies and rules. 

 

But hey- they were the best under that set of rules and scoring system. For 1946, Pretty cool!

Another thought about rules that you've reminded people for years and individuals seem to forget- Since 1965 for DCA, and since 1972 for DCI, the member corps make the decisions about how they're to be evaluated and scored. Not Judges, not any other interest groups. Haven't heard any rumblings from either circuit to re-work to a tick system ever since they decided to change it.

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21 hours ago, greg_orangecounty said:

Thank you, BigW.  i enjoyed reading your response/post. 👍

There's a lot of cool stuff out there now from c. 1969 on when things began to become videotaped here and there.. Things from a lot of well respected corps from their time. A Lot of stuff from Quebec corps that were very thoughtful and innovative. The Patro Laval (later L'Clique Alouette) montage videos are simply marvelous. Some things haven't changed since c.1955 if you watch those. Camaraderie, getting unis ready,  the town parades... good stuff.

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5 hours ago, greg_orangecounty said:

Corps always wrote to the sheets since the days you could get a tic for missing a button on your cadet, that's not my argument.  I'm saying score sheets and "staff that mastered" did matter, but its management, parental support, and revenue streams that corps lived and died by.  If not, the Kingsmen and countless other corps would still be around.

I don't think of myself as an oracle of Drum Corps, but I was there during that period and know what I saw and lived. 

management certainly counted. but the management issues often led to talented people walking and going elsewhere

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On 8/16/2021 at 12:14 PM, PopcornEater1963 said:

I tend to agree. Then again, no one goes to an outdoor music festival with multiple bands with a scorecard in their pocket. And those events definitely charge “good money” to attend. Which would transition this conversation to “sporting event” versus “musical entertainment “. Which I believe has been discussed ad nauseum here🤪

I’ve (sometimes happily) attended dozens of those festivals.  

The biggest festivals (Lollapalooza, etc) suffer from a heavy profit motive and a “rags-to-riches” performance mentality. Musicianship is in short supply, as are the chops to perform live.  I can’t help but think how much better the bad bands would be with the benefit of auditions, camp, daily rehearsal, staff, judging, competition and/or decades of tradition.

Most of my festival friends do not hear things the same way I do.  They don’t have the background to understand what they’re hearing- they’re focused on lyrics or seeing a live performance of a radio hit, not on the live performance in front of them.  Giving them scorecards would just be a popularity contest, not a musical competition.  

That said, there are a lot of us who would pay to have the bands judged on their live musicianship.  We want to know ahead of time which bands can actually play their instruments and which ones can’t.  We also want to know afterward if the band we saw had a good night or not.  More than anything, we’d rather see someone who’s mastered their craft than be disappointed by a band who’s only good in the studio.

My 2 cents.

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On 8/17/2021 at 6:52 PM, Mello Dude said:

Well perhaps we need to move GE out of the judges hands and have the audience vote.  With all the smart phones out there now I don't see this as an issue as long as Flo isn't programming it. 😛  Better to be subjective to the mob than just a few in the case of GE.

 

Calling all hackers!
Retweet #vote4myCorps to win a free slushie at your local 7 Eleven

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7 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

management certainly counted. but the management issues often led to talented people walking and going elsewhere

Lots of things told to me quietly over the years to the effect "X was never paid", "Y never got the money they were promised, only a part of it"...

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7 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

management certainly counted. but the management issues often led to talented people walking and going elsewhere

 

Often management with good intentions and no big picture insight.

22 minutes ago, BigW said:

Lots of things told to me quietly over the years to the effect "X was never paid", "Y never got the money they were promised, only a part of it"...

.Which lead to corps not making it one way or another. Also there are some of the big money makers of today who were notorious for the same and were lucky enough to hang on by a thread over the years and now have a money making machine Success and promises made, promises KEPT goes a long way.

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On 8/17/2021 at 12:52 PM, skevinp said:

No.  I would keep scoring.  I just think the significance of scoring is being ridiculously overstated by a few posters.

I would agree 100%. Scoring is, always has been and always will be important to the activity. We have tons of "exhibition events" in professional pool. They draw almost no fans and even less sponsorship dollars. Granted pool players (and pool fans for that matter,) are you unique breed. They love competition and honestly, a score equates to the better performer on that day. The only difference (and it's a big one,) is that pool isn't subjective. You either run out, or you don't. It's far more simplistic than Drum Corps. 

That being said.....the kids had fun this year. It was evident that the dynamic had changed for the better. Maybe we can take some lessons from this past season and make some positive changes that give us a balance. It reminds me of moving from DCI to DCA. I personally enjoyed the competition. But at the end of the day, just performing again was the biggest thrill for me. 

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17 hours ago, BigW said:

Jeff, you reminded me about the time Rook and I were in his Suckmobile listening to a  cassette dub of the Longshoremen's 78RPM recording of their 1946(?) VFW Championship performance. We're listening to "Ah, Sweet Mystery of Life" and I asked Rook why it was so rhythmically stilted and ironed out. He explained the 1946 VFW regs had a rule where the performance had to fit between x and y beats per minute tempo throughout the show or get a penalty. I think one conclusion reached that it was no wonder Corps eventually broke away from the AL and VFW sanctioning bodies and rules. 

 

But hey- they were the best under that set of rules and scoring system. For 1946, Pretty cool!

No idea for sure but think the concert number could be any tempo. Basing that on mid 1950s Westshoremen “Bolero” which is jaw dropping on how melodic it is for the  era. And early 50s Jersey Skeeters doing Brahms Lullaby as part of a song. Very slow but lot less melodic given the instruments 😳

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I polled my kids last week regarding this question - my oldest (recent FMM and DCI drum major) said that they'd have been thrilled to march without scores, as their entire corps developed a mental complex about them during the summer.  They said the corps likely would have been able to exhale and perform looser, and probably better.

My youngest (offered spot with WC DCI but turned down due to focusing on athletics) said they didn't care one whit about how the corps would score, that the chance to play with other elite musicians and put on electric shows was the draw.

Anecdotal evidence, sure, but it's all I got...

Mike

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