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Paraphrased Thoughts on "Judging" from a newly minted 5-year Age Out


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Please give me one example of art where the removal of competition leads to continued growth of that art form and the continued striving for excellence.

The only reason we call for eliminating competition is to protect against hurt feelings when we don't win and to build up a false belief that we are just as good as that other organization.

 

Competition is the life blood of achievement.

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4 minutes ago, tedrick said:

Please give me one example of art where the removal of competition leads to continued growth of that art form and the continued striving for excellence.

The only reason we call for eliminating competition is to protect against hurt feelings when we don't win and to build up a false belief that we are just as good as that other organization.

 

Competition is the life blood of achievement.

My issue isn't with the concept of judging.

The problem is having an objective system to accomplish that.

Art, by its very nature, makes that difficult, if not impossible.

If a judge likes jazz, more then rock, there is no way to completely put that "out of your mind" when you judge a show.

Same thing, I find it hard to believe that a judge who marched, taught, designed for corps "A", wouldn't judge that corps differently then corps "B".

Its just human nature.

While not perfect, I do think the "tick" system did provide more objective judging.

 

 

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1 hour ago, tedrick said:

Please give me one example of art where the removal of competition leads to continued growth of that art form and the continued striving for excellence.

The only reason we call for eliminating competition is to protect against hurt feelings when we don't win and to build up a false belief that we are just as good as that other organization.

Competition is the life blood of achievement.

That’s why all the great museums have scores next to the art.  

I’m reminded of the essay in the front of the literature book in Dead Poet Society, and Robin Williams’ response to it.

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23 hours ago, PopcornEater1963 said:

"There's nothing wrong with judging and competition. But I was fine and would be fine in the future without it. Removing the "judging" aspect would make positive changes,  for members, staff, and administration. The staff wouldn't be up all night listening to tapes after every show painstakingly deciding on what to "pay attention to" and what to "let go" from judges in the quest for a "higher score". Judge's insights can certainly make a show better, but in the end, judges just have an opinion like everyone else on what is working and what it isn't. For members, undertaking rewrites of music, drill, etc. would be more accepted and palatable if everyone knew it was to make the show more engaging and not the possibility it was just in the name of a "higher score". For Administrations, it would allow them to focus on Instruction Staff whose primary focus is to EDUCATE members, inspire excellence, and let the chips fall where the chips fall. I can almost guarantee you that there are one or two key staffers inside each organization whose sole focus is on "winning". Winning is fun. Winning is good. But when "winning" becomes the focus of a staffer trying to boost their bonafides in the DCI ecosystem over teaching and inspiring, then we all missed something somewhere..." 

-My son, last night, after our flight home from Indy while watching the Rebroadcast on Flo-Marching. 

No...he didn't say it in THOSE words. But our conversation was in-depth enough that I can paraphrase it with mine. 

I think he's spot on the money. 

Yep. As stated on my "end of scores?" thread, the actual current members see little value in scores. It's the parasitic adults and bitter alums from 30 years ago who care.

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20 hours ago, kdaddy said:

"For members, undertaking rewrites of music, drill, etc. would be more accepted and palatable if everyone knew it was to make the show more engaging and not the possibility it was just in the name of a 'higher score'."

I'm pretty surprised by this, to be honest. Were it me, I'd probably say "if we're not competing, then what's the point of rewrites?" 

There are other issues - smaller in the grand scheme, but still worth thinking about - that have built up around the idea of competition. Who gets what performance fees? Aren't they usually a function of placement? And also endorsements - if there's no "champion" or "top 6" or "top X," would endorsements work the same way? 

Yes, the money for the organizations and corporate sponsors is the most important thing (not sarcasm just fact).

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23 minutes ago, FTNK said:

Yep. As stated on my "end of scores?" thread, the actual current members see little value in scores.

Then why do so many of them leave a corps they happily marched with, in favor of marching with a higher scoring corps the following season?

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7 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:

Then why do so many of them leave a corps they happily marched with, in favor of marching with a higher scoring corps the following season?

Better teaching, design, and quality of the experience (logistics, food, sleep) which therefore results in better scores.

The majority of the members I was around this season did like the experience and non-competitive aspect this summer but are very eager to get back to competing next year. I'm sure there's exceptions though.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:

Then why do so many of them leave a corps they happily marched with, in favor of marching with a higher scoring corps the following season?

Speaking for myself, being in a more mature corps with members my age, having a functioning food truck and buses, having decent housing sites, having instructors who knew what they were doing

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16 hours ago, Mello Dude said:

It would be great if we saw more innovation, creativity and music rather than WGI regurgitated on a football field.  The problem (again) is that judging is done through a VERY narrow lens right now on what provides "score".  XYZ did this so it must be good thus provide "score" rather than actually critiquing it in a neutral fashion.  I can see everyone rushing to get 150 inch screens now....if they are rewarded "score".  This year was a true treat.  I fear that we will go back to the same ole same ole.

 

No , I don’t see “ everyone rushing to get 150 inch screens now “ at all . Nor do I see corps going back and recreating music shows in their entirety from 17 years ago , nor Corps going back to attire and shakos worn years ago , nor Corps putting 186 on the field , nor 94 brass , nor 60 Guard next season, and the like . As a matter of fact , I don’t believe we will witness ANY of these list of things I just listed here next season . It was a season of exhibition with most Corps doing things on the field that current rules do not allow , and likely will not have membership support and approval if proposed in the upcoming DCI winter meetings .Good , bad or indifferent , most  DCI shows from most of these Corps will look and sound nothing like they did this exhibition season once the Corps know that judges will return next summer … coupled with a few heavyweight Corps added into the mix that did not do the abbreviated season of short touring . 

Edited by Boss Anova
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1 hour ago, skevinp said:

That’s why all the great museums have scores next to the art.  

I’m reminded of the essay in the front of the literature book in Dead Poet Society, and Robin Williams’ response to it.

And museums compete with other museums all the time to “ score “ the best art for their museum. Without that ability to compete effectively to “ score “ that Art , many are forced to close their doors . 

 

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