The FLO of sound

[Jeff Ream]

21 hours ago, deftguy said:

It is not up to the corps to adjust their shows for the streaming production team. It is up to the production team to adapt and adjust their production values to the production. You get what you pay for when it comes to a video production team. When you don't have the money to pay for a quality production staff, you get what you get. 

this. Bloo for example has a book detailing the quirks of every stadium they go to. Flo should too, as well as take notes on corps they see as the summer goes. i cant tell you how many times i have seen the DCi finals weekend crew watching and taking notes in Allentown

[Jeff Ream]

9 hours ago, BigW said:

Hmm... A former student of mine and his Dad as well as an old family friend work in this field. One was with ABC developing a lot of the initial tech-NASCAR in-car cameras, etc. Later on, they started outsourcing to companies like my Father and Son friends work with because frankly, the travel's exciting, and the money was fantastic, but the intense travel can wear you out unless you like it. Not many people can do this stuff at any level, let alone at a professional, competent top end level. They wouldn't have their arrangements with ESPN/ABC, NBC, TV Globo, et al. unless they were really good at it.

 

The outsourcing company they work for covers the various Pro Sports, the Olympics, Cycling events, Helping with the David Letterman/Paul Newman stunt with the balloons, Helping Robert Ballard and David Cameron set up the video when the send stuff down to the Titanic... they're very, very professional. And... they demand and get a ton of money for their services. My friends involved live nicely.

The questions I have would be this:

I have a sinking feeling Flo is getting people who aren't as top end to do it. To do so would be very expensive. VERY, very expensive. I know for fact Cameron shelled out beaucoup to the gofer in Newfoundland to get stuff for the trip to the Titanic. Most of us would have loved to be paid that money and given a nice rental car to drive to hardware stores and the Wal-Mart for stuff.

 

Also, it sounds to me that they're tossing in these people without any chances to test anything beforehand audiowise. One thing I do know from listening to the guys I know is that stuff needs to be tested when you're into unfamiliar territory. Once they understand what's needed, how it's needed, what kind of equipment is needed, then they can attack the problem professionally and consistently. They solve problems. They're very smart, adaptive, and innovative.

 

Reading between the lines, they've never sat in a venue with a corps for any significant time to test everything out, have they? Testing to find issues, try and corroborate to solve the issues...but that time takes real money. Serious money It would arguably take rehearsal time away, but if it's audio, the Guard could get things done while the rest of the ensemble plays. If it's the front ensemble, just test that. 

 

Just my mulling on the matter. Until they can sit down and hammer out solutions regarding hardware and software directly testing, this will continue to be painful.

lo should be sending crews to spring training to get some practice and test things. they should keep notes on each corps as the season goes, and have a book detailing venues as each has their own quirks.

example: when i taught, i knew how to tune for certain venues. Scranton...spread the intervals for the bass out and keep the bottom paper thin...that sound with the outfield wall and the mountain...dear God. Hershey...go high, the concrete swallows the bottom. i even tell groups now how to plan for Wildwood convention center for daylight shows vs. evening shows as well as big crowd versus small crowd. They have been going to many of these venues every #### year, and still watching i can see the mics and say "oh #### here we go". Yet they can't figure that out? I have no formal training in this stuff but have learned enough to spot a problem coming

[BigW]

9 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

lo should be sending crews to spring training to get some practice and test things. they should keep notes on each corps as the season goes, and have a book detailing venues as each has their own quirks.

example: when i taught, i knew how to tune for certain venues. Scranton...spread the intervals for the bass out and keep the bottom paper thin...that sound with the outfield wall and the mountain...dear God. Hershey...go high, the concrete swallows the bottom. i even tell groups now how to plan for Wildwood convention center for daylight shows vs. evening shows as well as big crowd versus small crowd. They have been going to many of these venues every #### year, and still watching i can see the mics and say "oh #### here we go". Yet they can't figure that out? I have no formal training in this stuff but have learned enough to spot a problem coming

100% as we say at work. Talking to family of the Father and Son team yesterday, for instance, they have to have two settings for the Skydome for the roof closed and open because of broadcast interference from the CN tower. Set up for the Olympics was far ahead of it to check everything.

 

Again, Jeff, you pay and pay well for excellence in that field. There are few who do it well. Great job opportunity for those who like travelling.

[deftguy]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:42 AM, cixelsyd said:

The problem with the "adapt and adjust" approach is that you have to experience the problems before you can adapt to them.  It guarantees that a portion of every corps show will be marred by unbalanced sound.

Flo has had enough time and experience with Drum Corps to understand how the activity works. They didn't start doing this yesterday. 

By now they should have learned enough to do a flawless (or nearly) streaming broadcast. They have done enough of them.  They have produce enough pre-finals shows to know where to block a frame, what soloist to capture, and where to feature sections - and there is such thing as live monitoring the audio before and after streaming it to the public. Dolby makes great products that do this job. 

The last five years of my career with Disney I spent at ESPN doing live audio mixing for sports.  There were times we went into a venue not know just what to expect, but we figured it out. Sometimes it was a challenge, but you step up your game when they are presented. There is no excuse for poor audio and video. The tools are there, and all you need is the experience. Unfortunately, that cost money. 

[cixelsyd]

10 hours ago, deftguy said:

Flo has had enough time and experience with Drum Corps to understand how the activity works. They didn't start doing this yesterday. 

By now they should have learned enough to do a flawless (or nearly) streaming broadcast. They have done enough of them.  They have produce enough pre-finals shows to know where to block a frame, what soloist to capture, and where to feature sections - and there is such thing as live monitoring the audio before and after streaming it to the public. Dolby makes great products that do this job. 

The last five years of my career with Disney I spent at ESPN doing live audio mixing for sports.  There were times we went into a venue not know just what to expect, but we figured it out. Sometimes it was a challenge, but you step up your game when they are presented. There is no excuse for poor audio and video. The tools are there, and all you need is the experience. Unfortunately, that cost money. 

That makes sense.

What prompted my comment, however, was the specific challenge of mixing audio with six-channel hard-wired feeds from the sound board of each corps.  Broadcast crews can eventually "adapt and adjust" to the wide variety of sound board outputs from different corps, but what we hear during the adapt/adjust phase is pretty ugly.

[Fred Windish]

Good to hear from someone (deftguy) who has real experience in live event sound. Still not sure what to make of Flo’s spotty performance. I do know, as passionate drum corps fans, we  almost expect perfection in everything related. We won’t always get it, but we seem to demand it!

As a huge college football fan, I used Flo yesterday and this morning to look in on a wide variety of games from yesterday. This year, Flo distributes the feed from mostly Mid-Major teams. The production quality is all over the place there, too!

I’m thinking Flo is not really a ‘production’ company. What Flo is selling is access to a distribution system.  In other words, they’ll take whatever you give them and send it out, regardless of talent required. 

If the home team’s A/V Department/Sports Network has the right people and placement in positions for what the school does on a regular basis throughout the week, viewers using Flo to watch the event will not be disappointed. The people and equipment are far more dependable.

It seems, Flo can set-up a standard set of cameras, mics, etc., and switch it ‘ON.’  The ‘ON’ is what you pay for.  All the rest is up to the customer.

So, unless there are a few improvements/assistance provided by DCI and its corps. this will always ‘be what it is’ currently.

Again, the yearly Flo All-Access (many diverse sports and activities) DOES send out some good looking, good sounding product. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Fred Windish

[JimF-LowBari]

19 minutes ago, Fred Windish said:

 

As a huge college football fan, I used Flo yesterday and this morning to look in on a wide variety of games from yesterday. This year, Flo distributes the feed from mostly Mid-Major teams. The production quality is all over the  place

Again, the yearly Flo All-Access (many diverse sports and activities) DOES send out some good looking, good sounding product. 

Thanks for the info Fred. No idea who provides access to my Div II and sisters Div III sports. Have watched football playoffs for both and no problem with sound/picture quality and NO freeze ups. My schools MB did a virtual show last year and no problems with that either. Was going to start watching basketball games but Covid wiped out the season. Just interesting to me that the smaller schools have no issues yet DC providers are 🤷🏻

[Jeff Ream]

14 hours ago, Fred Windish said:

Good to hear from someone (deftguy) who has real experience in live event sound. Still not sure what to make of Flo’s spotty performance. I do know, as passionate drum corps fans, we  almost expect perfection in everything related. We won’t always get it, but we seem to demand it!

As a huge college football fan, I used Flo yesterday and this morning to look in on a wide variety of games from yesterday. This year, Flo distributes the feed from mostly Mid-Major teams. The production quality is all over the place there, too!

I’m thinking Flo is not really a ‘production’ company. What Flo is selling is access to a distribution system.  In other words, they’ll take whatever you give them and send it out, regardless of talent required. 

If the home team’s A/V Department/Sports Network has the right people and placement in positions for what the school does on a regular basis throughout the week, viewers using Flo to watch the event will not be disappointed. The people and equipment are far more dependable.

It seems, Flo can set-up a standard set of cameras, mics, etc., and switch it ‘ON.’  The ‘ON’ is what you pay for.  All the rest is up to the customer.

So, unless there are a few improvements/assistance provided by DCI and its corps. this will always ‘be what it is’ currently.

Again, the yearly Flo All-Access (many diverse sports and activities) DOES send out some good looking, good sounding product. 

I think Flo should have learned when they lost BOA

[deftguy]

On 9/3/2021 at 5:25 AM, cixelsyd said:

That makes sense.

What prompted my comment, however, was the specific challenge of mixing audio with six-channel hard-wired feeds from the sound board of each corps.  Broadcast crews can eventually "adapt and adjust" to the wide variety of sound board outputs from different corps, but what we hear during the adapt/adjust phase is pretty ugly.

This is not that difficult, as it is like the relationship between the front of house, and the house mixer. You can take 12,16, or 24 microphone feeds and whatever pre-recording audio you have, buss them down to a 6 channel feed, and send it to the broadcast truck or audio production room for balancing before sending it out as a live feed. The responsibility of each corps mix lies in the hands of their assigned sound engineer, and it is up to them to coordinate with the house mixer on the ultimate sound of their corps.  This is the basic audio workflow for broadcast television and streaming, and has been used since forever. 

[Continental]

"Flo of Sound" would be a great Steven Spielberg movie about a bunch of kids who find a DVD that contains footage of an alien invasion during a drum corps show. 

 

Edited September 12, 2021 by Continental