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March or Die thoughts 2021....


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On 9/25/2021 at 4:31 PM, Sutasaurus said:

We all struggled at one time or another……your rant has been noted.

Yes, many drum corps have endured struggles.  When you can name another drum corps out there who marched only 25 horns in world class (1979) and 19 horns in world class (1983) on 30 year old equipment without a penny to its name and survived, let me know.  It is because of the kids who marched during this era who have become very successful as middle aged men and women that we have the financial success of today.

Nobody needs to lecture the Boston Crusaders on either character building or perseverance.

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1 hour ago, craiga said:

Yes, many drum corps have endured struggles.  When you can name another drum corps out there who marched only 25 horns in world class (1979) and 19 horns in world class (1983) on 30 year old equipment without a penny to its name and survived, let me know.  It is because of the kids who marched during this era who have become very successful as middle aged men and women that we have the financial success of today.

Nobody needs to lecture the Boston Crusaders on either character building or perseverance.

Who is lecturing?

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On 9/24/2021 at 3:07 PM, craiga said:

Where were some of you folks back in the 80's, when BAC had home made uniforms, no truck whatever, and had an all-volunteer alumni instructional staff for more than a decade?   Where was the outrage then over the "haves" and "have-nots"?    Apparently, we want drum corps to be successful, but not too much.  Furthermore, I continue to maintain that the props some folks rail against are a very small line item in any corps' budget, and to consistently name them as the certain future cause of drum corps decline is bizarre.  Props and non-traditional uniforms/costumes are nothing new.

Here are some anectodal things I remember from the '80s (in addition to your example above), relative to equity:

- Country Club Drum Corps (Star)

- SCV and their uniforms / uniform changes / magic tricks

- Dutch Boy buying the tiny many-year-old DEG contrabasses from us in PR, and practicing before retreat to get their very young corps into finals and save the corps

- Getting off of a 1957 Golden Eagle bus, next to modern (for the time) tour busses that the "haves" were using.  

There was a lot of complaining about equity back then, too.  My personal impression is the scale of the equity problem is bigger now

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On 9/24/2021 at 4:40 PM, Sutasaurus said:

Let me turn that concept around back at you for a moment. What BAC went through in the 80’s is nothing different than what a number of corps went through at one time or another. 

 Perhaps true. But that level of financial and membership struggles led to such Corps folding. In every single case.

 In my opinion, with all due respect here too, no Corps has made it through the depth of bottoming out like Boston Crusaders have gone thru ( more than once too ), and came out the other side still performing and competing. I never marched Boston Crusaders, but I was around during  most  of those years, and had dear friends I've known that marched there ( even back in the 1950's) there . I'm not entirely sure some people really know how challenged some years there have been with Boston, so they assume that other surviving Corps still with us, have had similar struggles to stay afloat at times. Well.. I dont know about that. Not the levels of challenge that Boston has faced at different stages, different eras since its founding in  1940, anyway, imo.

 Boston had an early year ( late 1950's or so ) where they lost everything in a fire at their Hall. Uniforms, Shakos, Instruments, drums, bugles, flags, winning trophies from shows,  pictures of the Corps, memorabilia, etc, you name it. Gone. ( other Corps had fires too, losing much of everything. Some survived their bouts with fires, but most sadly didn't )

 Boston had a Massachusetts Bankruptcy judge literally take their name " Boston Crusaders  " away ( early 1980"s). The judge disallowed them to use the Corps  name.  One they had for 4 decades at that time. That should have sunk them right there.  if a bankruptcy proceeding ruling has a judge that takes your very name away, you don't go out and compete anymore.  I mean really.. its curtains with that for most Corps. You toss up the white flag of surrender, as its over. Your Corps is broke, and a bankruptcy judge just  took your very name away. Has this happened to any other Corps that is still with us ? Maybe, but I don't believe so anyway.

 But Boston didnt throw in the towel. They went out as " The Boston Corps ".  Same corps colors. Not a bad Corps. Pretty good actually, but jeez, too small to really compete effectively and "win " with the big boys with much bigger Corps than them, by then. They marched under that name for a season, then retired their debt, went back to bankruptcy Court with that, and got their name back. Even as recently as 1997-98, Boston had Staff that worked with the Corps that knew right from the outset that fall/ winter that they were not going to be paid, as Boston could not pay them... so it literally became a knowing  labor of love for the Corps Manager and his staff that took over the reins then.

 Boston traveled one year to Allentown ( 1970's ). Could not afford busses. So they drove 7 hours each way in their own cars. Blue Devils rolled into Allentown in their A/C buses, saw the Boston marchers beside the BD busses getting out of their cars after sleeping in their cars, or on the nearby ground asleep, and getting dressed for competition. What chances did Boston have of making Top 12 Finals that show ?  ( Allentown had prelims and Finals back then).  None. Too small. No chance. Recall, Boston was in the 1960's one of the top 3-4 Corps in the Country,  but now a small shadow of themselves in the size of the Corps compared with their peers. Incidentally, side note... when BD saw the  BAC marchers, at Finals in Allentown as they marched by Boston marchers standing outside their cars, the BD percussion section marching by heading into the stadium Finals performance, stopped beside Boston marchers, and the the percussion section of BD opened up the tops of their uniforms, and underneath their uniforms, they all had on Boston Crusaders T shirts underneath their uniform tops. One BD marcher said " You guys did not make Finals, but you are the balls for being here, so you all go out in Finals tonite with us ". I was present at Allentown for this... 'will never forget that gesture from BD.

Yes, its true that Boston also operated for awhile with marchers themselves running the Corps. They had brass practice there for awhile in those lean years in the winters beside the Charles River in Cambridge, a stones throw from Boston. ( 1970's ) Their brass practice site was in an old, dark, dank, small shed along the river bank that housed old Harvard Univ .rowing parts and stuff.. a real dump.  The old low ceiling shed was heated by heaters the marchers brought to keep themselves warm as they fought off the winter's cold and practiced on their bugles there... by themselves most of the time. A few marchers even slept overnight there in the cold shed more than once or twice after practice. The fact none of them died of pneumonia while there is itself quite remarkable.  Other times Boston had adult staffers teach the Corps and those  staffers never drew a paycheck for that, as Boston had no money to pay them even of they wanted too. All they mostly had in those years was.... themselves. They were tough as nails. Small Corps, but Giants in the truest meaning of the word, imo. It drew a close and unbreakable bond among them those that went through this that has lasted to this very day , for those still alive and with us I talk to those from those days still. I have enormous respect for them.

 Boston  had another era time  ( 1980's )where  the Corps Manager at the time left the entire Corps stranded in Europe, as he went to Vegas, gambled the Corps treasury in desperate and foolish attempt to double the Corps treasury, and lost it all. The Boston Crusaders marchers stranded  over in Europe had to call home to parents or beg people to find travel money home. Boston kids were mostly working class, middle class kids. They don't have  " rainy day" funds for things like this. The major airline, American Airlines, that flew the Corps back to Boston from Europe did not get paid. They sued the Corps. But Boston Crusaders couldnt pay them. They were broke. So for over as decade, marchers were prohibited from flying American Airlines. It wasnt until years later, that new Mgt at Boston reached an out of court settlement that lifted that Airline's travel ban on the Corps and its marchers

  Boston once had a marcher ( 1970's ) that practiced all winter and spring with the Corps. He had no official release from his previous marching Corps  that, iike Boston, were members of both  DCI circuit and the Eastern Massachusetts Drum Corps Circuit.  He and  Boston Crusaders Manager at the time went before the Eastern Mass Circuit Board to secure the transfer release so he could march march Boston in the season just about to ensue. But the boy was denied his appeal. Boston's Manager was furious, and told the board Boston intended to march the boy as he was with them at every off season practice, this was too late to do this to the boy, and the boy had no intent to go back to his former corps, and if he could not march he likely would be tossed back to the potentially dangerous streets of South Boston, where he lived. The Eastern Mass Board said if Boston marched this boy, they would be terminated by the Eastern Massachusetts  Circuit at that point for doing so. So the Boston Crusaders Manager said to the Board that very day " Fine, make up the exit papers now, as we are keeping this marcher, he is marching Boston Crusaders this season, and I am announcing to all of you here today, our immediate and official termination from this Drum Corps circuit ".  Now, this withdrawal by Boston, the manager knew, was going to cost Boston Crusaders a lot of money, as Boston at the time was winning or medaling in these 12-15 circuit competitions, and their travel costs were nil as the competitions were all in Eastern Massachusetts at the time.  Boston after that, only had the revenues from newly formed DCI circuit at the time, a daunting financial challenge at the time for tHE Corps.  (But Boston won over that marcher, who late became a DM for Boston), and a loyal and devoted Alum for life.                                                                                                  Boston competed with under 20 brass some years during the DCI years too. Never asked to step down a class in Division either. The 20 brass were actually pretty darn good ( late 70's ), but they had no shot competing favorably with Corps with ( at the time ) 48-66 brass. So they took their shot with what they had... and what they had were young marchers and volunteers,  and unpaid adult staffers that simply said over and over again to themselves in too many times to count that... " this fiercely proud, a couple of National Championships under their belt ( 1960's ) Boston Crusaders will never die. Not on my watch.".   i do know of other Corps that remarkably are still with us after times of struggle. I know what some of them went through in tough times too.  Very commendable the resilience they demonstrated too.  I applaud their resilence as well. But the Boston Crusaders  ( imo )are singularly unique among the current Corps for their depth of struggle... in at least 5 stages of their existence, in different eras too... that collectively become unlike any other. Just my opinion,  and from a non BAC alum here.

Edited by Boss Anova
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7 hours ago, craiga said:

Yes, many drum corps have endured struggles.  When you can name another drum corps out there who marched only 25 horns in world class (1979) and 19 horns in world class (1983) on 30 year old equipment without a penny to its name and survived, let me know.

Not debating - just showing what comes next closest to what you describe:

- The 1982 Blue Stars were a bit better off, hitting the field with 26 horns (and adding a few more during tour).  What followed, as I understand it, ticks a lot of your boxes.  The corps had to rebuild from a feeder unit after that, with horn lines numbering in the teens almost every one of the next 20 seasons (granted, those corps were not entered in "open-class" as the parent corps was in 1982).  Had the feeder corps seed not been planted as a separate financial entity in 1982, the subsequent dissolution of the parent corps/org would have ended the Blue Stars saga back then.

- The Sunnyvale Sparks competed in the open division of 1966 drum corps field contests in 1966 with 18 horns.  But when management decided to revert to a drum & bell corps after that, the kids and instructors were left to rebuild with no equipment and no money.  Good thing their brass instructor, Gail Royer, had some ideas on how to go about it.

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2 hours ago, Boss Anova said:

 Perhaps true. But that level of financial and membership struggles led to such Corps folding. In every single case.

 I'm not going to attempt to illustrate Boston's struggles  beyond needed here, but imo, no Corps has made it through the depth of bottoming out that Boston Crusaders went thru ( more than once too ), and came out still performing and competing. I never marched Boston Crusaders, but I was around during those years, and had friends that marched there. I'm not entirely sure some people really know how challenged some years there have been with Boston, so they assume that other surviving Corps still with us, have had similar struggles to stay afloat at times. Well.. I dont know about that. Not the levels of challenge that Boston has faced at different stages, different eras since its founding in in 1940. 

 Boston had a Massachusetts Bankruptcy judge literally take their name " Boston Crusaders  " away ( early 1980"s). The judge disallowed them to use the Corps  name.  One they had for 4 decades at that time. That should have sunk them right there.  if a bankruptcy proceeding ruling has a judge that takes your very name away, you don't go out and compete anymore.  I mean really.. its curtains with that for most Corps. You toss up the white flag of surrender, as its over. Your Corps is broke, and a bankruptcy judge just  took your very name away. Has this happened to any other Corps that is still with us ? Maybe, but I don't believe so anyway.

 But Boston didnt throw in the towel. They went out as " The Boston Corps ".  Same corps colors. Not a bad Corps, but jeez, too small to really compete with the big boys.

 Boston traveled one year to Allentown. Could not afford busses. So they went in their own cars. Blue Devils rolled into Allentown in their A/C buses, saw the Boston marchers beside the BD busses getting out of their cars after sleeping in their cars, or on the nearby ground asleep, and getting dressed for competition. What chances did Boston have of making Top 12 Finals that show ?  ( Allentown had prelims and Finals back then).  None. Too small. No chance. Recall, Boston was in the 1960's one of the top 3-4 Corps in the Country,  but now a small shadow of themselves. Incidentally, side note... when BD saw the  BAC marchers, at Finals in Allentown as they marched by Boston marchers standing outside their cars, the BD percussion section marching by heading into the stadium Finals performance, stopped beside Boston marchers, and the the percussion section of BD opened up the tops of their uniforms, and underneath their uniforms, they all had on Boston Crusaders T shirts underneath their uniform tops. One BD marcher said " You guys did not make Finals, but you are the balls for being here, so you all go out in Finals tonite with us ". I was present at Allentown for this... 'will never forget that gesture from BD.

Yes, its true that Boston also operated for awhile with marchers themselves running the Corps. They had brass practice there for awhile in those lean years in the winters beside the Charles River in Cambridge, a stones throw from Boston. ( 1970's ) Their brass practice site was in an old shed that housed ship parts  The old low ceiling shed was heated by heaters the marchers brought to keep themselves warm as they fought off the winter's cold and practiced on their bugles there... by themselves most of the time. A few marchers even slept overnight there in the cold shed  more than once or twice after practice. The fact none of them died of pneumonia while there is itself remarkable.  Other times Boston had adult staffers teach the Corps and those  staffers never drew a paycheck for that, as Boston had no money to pay them even of they wanted too. All they mostly had in those years was.... themselves. It drew a close and unbreakable bond among them however that went through this,  that has lasted decades, for those still alive and with us still.

 Boston  had another era time  ( 1980's )where  the Corps Manager at the time left the entire Corps stranded in Europe, as he went to Vegas, gambled the Corps treasury in desperate and foolish attempt to double the Corps treasury, and lost it all. The Boston Crusaders marchers stranded  over in Europe had to call home to parents or beg people to find travel money home. Boston kids were mostly working class, middle class kids. They don't have  " rainy day" funds for things like this. The major airline, American Airlines, that flew the Corps back to Boston from Europe did not get paid. They sued the Corps. But Boston Crusaders couldnt pay them. They were broke. So for over as decade, marchers were prohibited from flying American Airlines. It wasnt until years later, that new Mgt at Boston reached an out of court settlement that lifted that Airline's travel ban on the Corps.

  Boston once had a marcher ( 1970's ) that practiced all winter and spring with the Corps. He had no official release from his previous marching Corps  that, iike Boston, were members of both  DCI and the Eastern Massachusetts Drum Corps Circuit.  He and  Boston Crusaders Manager at the time went before the Eastern Mass Circuit Board to secure the transfer release so he could march march Boston in the season just about to ensue. But the boy was denied his appeal. Boston Manager was furious, and told the board Boston intended to march the boy as he was with them at every practice, this was too late to do this to the boy and the boy had no intent to go back to his former corps, and if he could not mach he likely would be tossed back to the potentially dangerous streets of South Boston, where he lived. The Eastern Mass Board said if Boston marched this boy, they would leave the Eastern Massachuseets Circuit. So the Boston Crusaders Manager said to the Board that very day " Fine, make up the exit papers now, as we are keeping this marcher, he is marching Boston Crusaders this season, and I am announcing to all of you today, our immediate termination in this Drum Corps circuit ".  Now, this withdrawal by Boston, the manager knew, was going to cost Boston Crusaders a lot of money, as Boston at the time was winning or medaling in these 12-15 circuit competitions, and their travel costs were nil as the competitions were all in Eastern Massachusetts at the time.  Boston after that, only had the revenues from newly formed DCI circuit at the time, a daunting financial challenge at the time for tHE Corps.  (But Boston won over that marcher, who late became a DM for Boston), and a loyal and devoted Alum for life.                                                                                                  Boston competed with under 20 brass some years during the DCI years too. Never asked to step down a class in Division either. The 20 brass were actually pretty darn good ( late 70's ), but they had no shot competing favorably with Corps with ( at the time ) 48-66 brass. So they took their shot with what they had... and what they had were young marchers and volunteer, unpaid adult staffers that simply said over and over again in too many times to count that... " this proud, once Champion ( 1960's ) Boston Crusaders will never die. Not on my watch.".   i do know of other Corps that remarkably are still with us after times of struggle. I know what some of them went through in tough times too. But the Boston Crusaders  ( imo )are singularly unique among the current Corps for their depth of struggle... in at least 5 stages of their existence, in different eras too... that are unlike any other. Just my opinion, from a non alum there.

I appreciate the history of The Boston Corps and commend them for struggling through the hard times and succeeding. An admirable achievement.

The Phantom Regiment lost EVERYTHING in a corps hall fire in the late 60s. When I joined in 1971, our entire staff was volunteer. Dr. Dan & Jim Wren taught me, and several others, how to sight read music and play bugles in tune! True heros in my heart. I owe so much to those guys. Bob and Peg Stolberg were our adoptive parents who taught us to love and respect each other and be a phamily. Something I hold very close in my heart even at 65 years old!

Nothing was “handed” to the corps. When we weren’t practicing we were out selling pizzas from door to door to raise money to compete. I’m not here to say Boston didn’t have an easy history but I am here to say, many of us were part of a ground floor experience who believed and worked really really hard in the face of adversity to realize  the dream of a competitive drum corps… and it should be celebrated.

Edited by Sutasaurus
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I’m extremely unimpressed by Drum Corps hardship stories from anyone because……….it’s DRUM CORPS!

Hello?

The fact Boston has been around for 80 years, is highly competitive, and has a great guard, THAT impresses the heck out of me and they deserve all credit due.  

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25 minutes ago, greg_orangecounty said:

I’m extremely unimpressed by Drum Corps hardship stories from anyone because……….it’s DRUM CORPS!

Hello?

The fact Boston has been around for 80 years, is highly competitive, and has a great guard, THAT impresses the heck out of me and they deserve all credit due.  

You, of all people know what it was like during the “building years”. Yes, that’s what drum corps was all about….hard knocks and taking it to the next level. We all deserve a pat on the back for what we accomplished!

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On 9/24/2021 at 4:40 PM, Sutasaurus said:

 

Regarding props, for some it’s, as you say, a small line item while for others it’s a significant expense when you factor in the cost to produce said prop(s) the additional vehicle needed to transport them, the fuel for that vehicle, the extra body to drive that vehicle, the additional maintenance of the props, the list goes on. If a corps can afford them, fine. If a corps can’t, why penalize them off the bat for not keeping up.

 

 There are no penalties for non use of props in any Show. There is no caption in the judging sheets for " props ". Corps will place high or low, but it wont be for the size or cost, or elaborateness of any prop. I've seen some of the Corps with the biggest, most elaborate, most costly to make and transport props in Drum Corps not even make Finals.... lol ! I would imagine you have too. As a matter of fact, going back and looking at props the last decade, I see very little connection to the size , numbers, elaborateness of " props " to placements. Without naming names ( no need) some Corps have placed high in the last few years with rather small, inexpensive ( some might say " flimsy ) props. I dont see judges being fooled by big and expensive props, or handicapping Corps with smaller, inexpensive props. Same with WGI Scholastic groups, or BOA competitions. Some units with the biggest, most expensive props ( some as big as a small airplane...literally.. lol) did not win. So I'm not getting how any Corps scores or placements are predicated on a " prop" in the show. Judges want to assess if that prop you use in the show works or does not work. What a Corps might have paid for the prop, or how you transport it to the field and the like, is of no concern to them at all, imo. Nor should it be.

 

Edited by Boss Anova
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