March or Die thoughts 2021....

[cixelsyd]

On 9/28/2021 at 8:06 AM, cixelsyd said:

Well, then, it should be of no consequence if we just ended the practice by banning their use, right?

 

8 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

sure. start a petition, get thousands of signatures, and someone to present it to the board.

You are missing the point of my question... which was to address several of you who seem unusually reluctant to admit that "stuff" impacts scoring.  There has to be some reason for corps to use all this "stuff".  Like this, for instance:

8 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

as for the stuff used in a show....if it's used well, then boom, it wins. 

 

[cixelsyd]

8 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

and despite all of the threats of boycotts, walking away, etc, with every other rules change or addition that upset folks of whatever generation, nowhere near enough people walked away to affect the bottom line in a way to get attention of those voting.

I do not buy this argument anymore.  In fact, I think it is exactly the opposite.  I think:

- fans have been walking away from DCI all through its history

- leadership knows it

- leadership is convinced (rightly or wrongly) that they cannot stop it from happening, so

- they have chosen to pursue a support sector that they can hang onto - corporate partners/sponsors who make all this "stuff".

[waliman4444]

My fear is that this activity will become more exclusive than it already is..That there will come a time when the affordability for both marcher and fan becomes prohibitive..That there will be a few corps left, with Star of Indiana intentions, that will morph into a great product that few will able to see...In part, we may be there already...Frankly, I expected to see more people at the Allentown show...Granted, the lack of competition may have contributed to the audience size, but after almost 2 years of no drum corps, I would have thought that Allentown show would be like a big family reunion..Hopefully I'm wrong and I can go back to this page in the future and laugh at my anxiety...peace

[JimF-LowBari]

DCI wants/needs to have potential members want to join a corps and keep the activity going. DCI mentality (right or wrong) is potential members want to do something close to their band experience. And get the idea that DCI thinks if DC doesn’t have something bands have then members will think something is missing. 
So copy the bands and make sure corps can have all the “things” bands have.

[rpbobcat]

42 minutes ago, waliman4444 said:

Frankly, I expected to see more people at the Allentown show...Granted, the lack of competition may have contributed to the audience size, but after almost 2 years of no drum corps, I would have thought that Allentown show would be like a big family reunion..Hopefully I'm wrong and I can go back to this page in the future and laugh at my anxiety...peace

My wife and I were at the Allentown Show.

From what we saw and heard from the people there, as well our friends, who normally attend the Easts, there were  several reasons for a smaller then expected crowd.

1.They limited ticket sales to 75%  of the stadium's capacity, with Social Distancing Seating.

That not only limited seating, but some "worried" people stayed away.

2.A lot of people didn't think it was worth going for one night, with 5 DCI corps, especially if you had to travel and stay overnight.

3.All the bars and restaurants in the area had extremely limited hours.

4.Corps members weren't allowed into the stadium to fill the lower sections.

   

 

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by rpbobcat

[inbetween]

DCP needs to unveil the carousel as its mascot. Some one ya'll spend your entire "online life" complaining about the same stuff.  

[JimF-LowBari]

9 minutes ago, rpbobcat said:

My wife and I were at the Allentown Show.

From what we saw and heard from the people there, as well our friends, who normally attend the Easts, there were  several reasons for a smaller then expected crowd.

That not only limited seating, but some "worried" people stayed away.

 

As I start going to events other than drum corps I’ll guess average attendance is 50% from before. Even the outdoor ones

[craiga]

56 minutes ago, rpbobcat said:

My wife and I were at the Allentown Show.

From what we saw and heard from the people there, as well our friends, who normally attend the Easts, there were  several reasons for a smaller then expected crowd.

1.They limited ticket sales to 75%  of the stadium's capacity, with Social Distancing Seating.

That not only limited seating, but some "worried" people stayed away.

2.A lot of people didn't think it was worth going for one night, with 5 DCI corps, especially if you had to travel and stay overnight.

3.All the bars and restaurants in the area had extremely limited hours.

4.Corps members weren't allowed into the stadium to fill the lower sections.

   

 

 

Agree with all of this.  I have been to 26 Allentowns in a row.  Always have taken my RV with 3 or 4 buddies from Maine.  Speaking for myself and MANY New England friends, we all didn't go this year only because it was five corps show...and we saw the same five corps three nights in a row that very week..Quincy and Lawrence (twice) Mass.  It just wasn't worth it to make the 14 hour round trip to see the same five corps.  

[Boss Anova]

5 hours ago, rpbobcat said:

 

Unfortunately, as long as corps yield to show designers who design based on their egos, not to please fans, it isn't going to change.

2021 should have been a wake up call for DCI.

We'll see next season.

 

 2021 was an " exhibition, non scored,  no judges "  summer's season .  Most Corps prepared their shows for that format. Understandably so too.  2022 shows that will be designed and performed will likely look and sound more like  the 2019 scored competition season, than this season's exhibition format season. All show designers ( both World Class & Open Class Divisions ) have " strong egos ". None of them likely have  " weak egos ".

  Show Designers design shows they believe their primary paying customers ( their students ) will enjoy performing. Second on that priority consideration,  show designers design shows they believe their students can handle and will be challenged with ( but not beyond their expected talent levels to properly execute ), and thirdly, that will score and place well within their peer group on the DCI competition stratified totem pole the following season.

  We make a mistake of we believe the shows are designed primarily for " fans ". Here is the frank truth.. they're not.  The shows are certainly not going to be purposely designed to be boring or unengaging  for most fans that attend a show or two during the season. But nowhere on the DCI judging sheets will we find " fans in the stands " as a consideration in the scoring numbers that judges will award in their point allotment.  It has not been this way in... well, since the inception of DCI itself.

 The DCI Corps met last week out in Indy. They voted ( unanimously ) to increase the limit of students on the field from 154 to 165. But from my reading of the reports from out there in Indy, there was no proposal put forth to change the judging sheets to better accommodate " fans ". So the conclusion one draws from this is that the Corps are satisfied with the current approved scoring sheets,  and the judges that utilize them, and a return to the 2019 system of scoring should continue.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Boss Anova

[cixelsyd]

14 hours ago, Boss Anova said:

   I'm for the return of Honor Guards,  mandatory Flag Presentations in shows, and dancing banned in Drum Corps. Are ya with me ? Get rid of all " the stuff " I don't like. Are you with me on that too ? ☺️

Well, that was uncalled for.  As even you know full well... 

9 hours ago, Boss Anova said:

We're not a monolithic group, thats why. ' Never have been.

My concerns with the "stuff" are not just trivial personal preferences.  My enjoyment of a show is not affected by the presence/absence of props or tarps, or whether the corps wears something different from what they wore last year.

At some level, though, including "stuff" has to make sense.  The drum corps activity is already very expensive without "stuff", and it depends on both fan revenue and charity for its survival.  Corporate partnerships/sponsorships do not cover the cost of incorporating all this "stuff" in drum corps shows.  So how does it make sense?

1.  It might make sense if the "stuff" added to the artistic/entertainment value of the product.  If truly effective, it could pay for itself in audience gained.  Unfortunately, such transformative change to drum corps has not produced a corresponding transformative gain in audience.  I ask questions here to explore why that is. 

Judging from the reluctance of anyone to admit that "stuff" even adds to scoring, much less true artistic/entertainment value, it seems that something different is going on.  It was like pulling teeth to get the admission that "stuff" can enhance competitive outcomes when used well.  Meanwhile, to the neutral observer, much of this "stuff" (particularly A&E, props and tarps) has frequently impaired effectiveness and at times disrupted performance.  Examples - songs based on an amplified soloist who cuts in/out (mostly out), destroying the melody for 25% of the show; marchers tripping/slipping on tarps; props not used on damp fields on account of either potential field damage or slip hazards.  But when "stuff" is used badly, scores do not suffer.  Scores only respond to "stuff" in a positive context, in complete denial of when they detract.  Never have heard a viable explanation for that.

2.  It could also make sense if the "stuff" is part of a longer-range plan.  If DCI leaders believed that aligning with the much better financed scholastic marching arts was their only hope for success, then transforming the activity with the inclusion of band/WGI "stuff" that is otherwise unsuitable/unaffordable for the DCI venue might be justified as a strategy for saving a subset of the corps (member corps) with the corporate support that a marching music major league/showroom approach might attract.

Ultimately, that course would work best if:

a.  Leadership would admit that they believe it impossible to sustain drum corps as a distinct artform.

b.  All marching arts "stuff" would have to be included (i.e. woodwinds).

c.  All "stuff" would have to be demonstrably successful on the DCI showroom floor (contest field).  Oh, maybe that explains why "stuff" only adds to scoring potential, and never detracts.

So far, answer #2 seems more likely than #1.  I cannot think of a #3 right now.  Chime in if you have one.