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March or Die thoughts 2021....


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4 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

On that sheet you linked, where it explains "Excellence as Effect", they use the phrase "elicits positive responses from the listener".  That only happens when the listener likes what they are hearing.

 Hmmn... this not quite the way you think it works however. GE judges may not " LIKE " a particular genre of music being played in the show. it may actually personally not be all that pleasant to their ear, and actually not to their personal " liking ".  But if the music being played is " EFFECTIVE " in conjunction with the various elements on the GE sheets the judge is asked to utilize in assigning points in comparison to others in the show, that judge can, and will, provide a good number on the GE Music sheets. Likewise, a GE Music judge may " Like " a particular genre of music, " like " the music from the field they hear as a result, but provide a lower score on the GE Music  sheets compared to others in the show because that music sound did not check off the boxes as well on the GE Music sheets. It is neither inconceivable, not incompatible with the GE Music sheet, for a GE Music Judge to score a Corps high or low on a GE score, that is quite removed from their personal " like " of what they heard.

 I do believe that DCI likely has done a subpar job of actually explaining how Corps are currently judged in competition. Not a lot of fans (imo ) actually understand the captions very well and what judges are being asked to do under the sheets they are provided by the Corps themselves. This lack of knowledge ( or a misunderstanding of what the captions really are assessing ) does create a level of regrettable frustration for some large segment of spectators to the competitions.

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29 minutes ago, Boss Anova said:

 

 I do believe that DCI likely has done a subpar job of actually explaining how Corps are currently judged in competition. Not a lot of fans (imo ) actually understand the captions very well and what judges are being asked to do under the sheets they are provided by the Corps themselves. This lack of knowledge ( or a misunderstanding of what the captions really are assessing ) does create a level of regrettable frustration for some large segment of spectators to the competitions.

:: where ever that raising hand emoji thingie is::  That's me. 

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1 hour ago, OldSnareDrummer said:

:: where ever that raising hand emoji thingie is::  That's me. 

Here’s my emoji on scoring in either DCI or DCA… 🤷🏻 

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7 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

On that sheet you linked, where it explains "Excellence as Effect", they use the phrase "elicits positive responses from the listener".  That only happens when the listener likes what they are hearing.

 

2 hours ago, Boss Anova said:

 Hmmn... this not quite the way you think it works however. GE judges may not " LIKE " a particular genre of music being played in the show. it may actually personally not be all that pleasant to their ear, and actually not to their personal " liking ". 

The sheet does not say "elicits positive responses from the GE judge"... it says "from the listener".

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50 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:

 

The sheet does not say "elicits positive responses from the GE judge"... it says "from the listener".

 Correct. This thread is mostly about some disgruntled fans on here not liking what is rewarded currently on the judging sheets. The article linked here makes no mention of  " GE Judges ",.... nor that " audience engagement " in the article refers to on field competition, or show designs, or any of that. " Audience engagement " can refer to any number of things, ie, encores,  drum line battles at shows,  etc.. and yes, even on field shows. But, we really dont know what the article was referring to with this " audience engagement " briefly mentioned and lumped in with other things that were discussed out in Indy, as it could be any number of things.

 Judges are THE most important" listeners " if we are talking about what should or should not be rewarded in todays shows in scored competition. Insofar as fans being " listeners ", they are certainly important " listeners " as they have to decide if the full experience of their reason for attendance , which includes at some level, to some, of "listenable music ", we would imagine, meets their needs. Keep in mind that a rather large segment of the audience at any show is there for reasons that have virtually nothing at all to do with what is out there on the field, ie their family or close friend is out there,or they want to financially help the show sponsor, or they want mostly to go and smooze with friends they marched with years ago, and other non, on field,  performance reasons. As for me, I sometimes leave before the scores are even announced at  local shows ( to beat the traffic out of the parking lot and onto the roads ). I leave the scoring to the judges. Thats their domain. What I liked ( or did not like ) in a show performance, is in my domain. What I liked or did not particularly care for that I saw or heard from a  Corps or Corps is never predicated on their scores or placements.  But I can understand the WHY for most scores and placements ( for the most part ) as I think I have a pretty good grasp of what the captions say that the judges will assess and reward on the sheets. And it seems to me there is no large outcry from the Corps themselves that the judging sheets they voted for, need to be changed, as the judges are not getting it right, or whatever with the scores they are giving out.

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5 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

 

The sheet does not say "elicits positive responses from the GE judge"... it says "from the listener".

Exactly so. The GE judge can read how all of the listeners are reacting to a show in evaluating that aspect of the Effect sheet. It has nothing to do with what the GE judge happens to "like" musically. Of course, that is but one portion of the Effect sheet. 

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10 hours ago, JimF-LowBari said:

Wasn’t directed toward you. Just my little dig at people who say the tic system was subjective but this system isn’t because it’s so well defined. May be well defined but still subjective that the corps matches whatever parameters.

And I competed in 3 Senior circuits. I know how subjective the tic system was. 😆

I have not really seen anyone claim that today's system is objective. I have read many who claim that tics were objective, when they were not. Every system of judging is/was subjective. I guess maybe the old Cadence caption on the VFW sheets was objective, as it was based on checking the tempo against a running clock at designated intervals in the show.

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16 hours ago, MikeD said:

I have not really seen anyone claim that today's system is objective. I have read many who claim that tics were objective, when they were not. 

 That said, I believe I have read/ heard where some have stated that todays build up system is less subjective than the older tic system. I don't subscribe to that assessment however. Both systems are highly subjective, imo

 A compelling case could be made that todays judges are under far more challenges to judge the subjective system of today, than previous judges challenges in that subjective judging system. The judges BITD were judging similar instrumentation sounds to compare and contrast. Today's judges are judging far more disparate sounds coming from these musical ensembles in the approx 11 minute shows, as the musical instrumentations utilized in the performance by the very nature of the instrument itself, provide different sounds that enter the ear canal of the music caption judges. Add in voice, singing, and systems engineering that can change the sounds and the like, and today's judges are faced with a task that I'm glad I dont have to be entrusted to do. But yes, both systems of the TIC and the build systems of judging Drum Corps in on field competition are very subjective systems. But I have learned to live with the subjectivity nature of it all. On the whole, I think the judges get the scores/ placements essentially right.

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10 minutes ago, Boss Anova said:

 That said, I believe I have read/ heard where some have stated that todays build up system is less subjective than the older tic system. 

 

This… plus claims that the judging system is precise about what is a Box5 or whatever the terms are. Words on a paper may be precise but still subjective if a corps reaches that level.

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