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March or Die thoughts 2021....


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17 hours ago, MikeD said:

Exactly so. The GE judge can read how all of the listeners are reacting to a show in evaluating that aspect of the Effect sheet. It has nothing to do with what the GE judge happens to "like" musically. Of course, that is but one portion of the Effect sheet. 

Almost as if the corps, themselves, chose what should be rewarded.  The sheets didn't just write themselves, and the judges certainly didn't write them.  Guess who did, and guess who trains the judges on what they should reward?   

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1 hour ago, Lance said:

Almost as if the corps, themselves, chose what should be rewarded.  The sheets didn't just write themselves, and the judges certainly didn't write them.  Guess who did, and guess who trains the judges on what they should reward?   

That would be corps that conduct seminars (for judges) on what is considered worthy of score.  One in particular does this exceeding well leading to many victories.....   Thus, this goes back to what I have been saying all along, the sheets don't mean anything as the judge  gets to make that interpretation.  I don't see how this reality is hard to accept.  Some refute this, but it's silly.

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7 hours ago, Boss Anova said:

 That said, I believe I have read/ heard where some have stated that todays build up system is less subjective than the older tic system. I don't subscribe to that assessment however. Both systems are highly subjective, imo

 A compelling case could be made that todays judges are under far more challenges to judge the subjective system of today, than previous judges challenges in that subjective judging system. The judges BITD were judging similar instrumentation sounds to compare and contrast. Today's judges are judging far more disparate sounds coming from these musical ensembles in the approx 11 minute shows, as the musical instrumentations utilized in the performance by the very nature of the instrument itself, provide different sounds that enter the ear canal of the music caption judges. Add in voice, singing, and systems engineering that can change the sounds and the like, and today's judges are faced with a task that I'm glad I dont have to be entrusted to do. But yes, both systems of the TIC and the build systems of judging Drum Corps in on field competition are very subjective systems. But I have learned to live with the subjectivity nature of it all. On the whole, I think the judges get the scores/ placements essentially right.

Yes, drum corps waaaay back was much more uniform in  instrumentation to be evaluated. However...

Don't forget, there are thousands of HS marching bands competing nationwide, and there have been for decades. Judges are used to evaluating a wide variety of instrumentation and setups, given the totality of their judging, as most DCI judges also judge band shows. I judged bands with electronics back in the 70's...also singers and keyboards as far back as the early 80's. 

Even in a single band class can have a wide variety of instrumentation band-to-band, much more so than drum corps. 

I agree that they are usually right in their ranking and rating of the corps.  

 

 

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7 hours ago, Lance said:

Almost as if the corps, themselves, chose what should be rewarded.  The sheets didn't just write themselves, and the judges certainly didn't write them.  Guess who did, and guess who trains the judges on what they should reward?   

Yes, the corps decide how they should be evaluated. That was one of the founding beliefs of DCI. Before DCI, having outside organizations impose their systems of judging ended up with a wide variety of how the corps were judged show-to-show. VFW sheets had 10 points for overall GE, plus Cadence and Inspection captions. At the World Open the same year, GE was a 30-point caption, as one example.

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On 9/30/2021 at 7:37 AM, rpbobcat said:

From looking a the sheet you posted, how a show meets the scoring criteria is based on the individual judge's perception of meeting the criteria.

I don't think anyone can put aside human nature and give, even if its unintentional, a "leg up" to what they like.

As I posted, just like gymnastics and skating, as much as they may try to be objective, judges interpret performances with a certain degree of subjectivity.

As I also posted, judges I've spoken to admit this can happen, albeit unintentionally.

 

 

 

 

thats the same of any sheet....not just GE. Brass, ensemble music, percussion, any of the visual sheets.....its up to the individual judges perception.

Guess what....it was the same thing in the over hyped tic system. hell half of those sheets had zero criteria.

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On 9/30/2021 at 8:27 AM, cixelsyd said:

On that sheet you linked, where it explains "Excellence as Effect", they use the phrase "elicits positive responses from the listener".  That only happens when the listener likes what they are hearing.

wrong. a positive response means a variety of things. it doesnt just mean you like something.

Your response to an event or to something that is said is your reply or reaction to it...Collins dictionary. doesn't say anything specific about liking what you hear

 

 

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On 9/30/2021 at 11:26 AM, JimF-LowBari said:

Wasn’t directed toward you. Just my little dig at people who say the tic system was subjective but this system isn’t because it’s so well defined. May be well defined but still subjective that the corps matches whatever parameters.

And I competed in 3 Senior circuits. I know how subjective the tic system was. 😆

both are. never claimed otherwise. now however, unlike the tic era, you actually have consistent criteria. 

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On 9/30/2021 at 1:43 PM, Boss Anova said:

 Hmmn... this not quite the way you think it works however. GE judges may not " LIKE " a particular genre of music being played in the show. it may actually personally not be all that pleasant to their ear, and actually not to their personal " liking ".  But if the music being played is " EFFECTIVE " in conjunction with the various elements on the GE sheets the judge is asked to utilize in assigning points in comparison to others in the show, that judge can, and will, provide a good number on the GE Music sheets. Likewise, a GE Music judge may " Like " a particular genre of music, " like " the music from the field they hear as a result, but provide a lower score on the GE Music  sheets compared to others in the show because that music sound did not check off the boxes as well on the GE Music sheets. It is neither inconceivable, not incompatible with the GE Music sheet, for a GE Music Judge to score a Corps high or low on a GE score, that is quite removed from their personal " like " of what they heard.

 I do believe that DCI likely has done a subpar job of actually explaining how Corps are currently judged in competition. Not a lot of fans (imo ) actually understand the captions very well and what judges are being asked to do under the sheets they are provided by the Corps themselves. This lack of knowledge ( or a misunderstanding of what the captions really are assessing ) does create a level of regrettable frustration for some large segment of spectators to the competitions.

https://www.dci.org/static/judging

https://www.dci.org/news/adjudication-101-who-judges-what

https://www.dci.org/news/dci-judging-101

https://www.dci.org/news/a-dci-judging-primer

 

a quick google search found these links at the top of the page...and there was several dozen others

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On 9/30/2021 at 4:04 PM, cixelsyd said:

 

The sheet does not say "elicits positive responses from the GE judge"... it says "from the listener".

the Ge music judge is the listener

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